Pinto, taitiibee and other terminology

[albash]

Just wonder what pinto, taitiibee and tiibee mean as Ive read them somewhere. Are there any chart or pict that describe common shrimps and their "mix" available?

[sushant]

Just wonder what pinto, taitiibee and tiibee mean as Ive read them somewhere. Are there any chart or pict that describe common shrimps and their "mix" available?

These terms make me pull my hairs. atleast now I know, that i'm not the only member with limited shrimp knowledge[emoji2]

[ineke]

There certainly are some terms and abbreviations that are hard to get your head around.

Tibee - is a hybrid between a Tiger ( OEBT - orange eye blue tiger ) or also blonde tiger- and usually a Taiwan Bee ( TB) but some use crystals- CBS (Crystal Black Shrimp) and CRS ( Crystal Red Shrimp) with the Tiger

TaiTibee - is a Tibee crossed back to a Taiwan Bee

Pinto - is a colour and type of Taitibee

Pretty sure that is it but someone will correct me if I got it wrong. There was a list of commonly used abbreviations in the glossary that helps with all the terms we tend to use.

There is a cross breeding chart somewhere but it is pretty out dated now and has been proven that the percentages don't seem to apply .

Tigers, Crystals and Taiwan Bees all breed together .

Taiwan Bees crossed with Crystals give Mischlings which are then crossed back to Taiwan Bees to help people get to their goals quicker in having more Taiwan Bees (TB) however on this forum we like to let people know when Mischling bloodlines appear in our breeding so more initials are added. If you get a King Kong (KK) Bluebolt (BB), Panda or any other TB from a TB/ Mischling cross we like to let people know by saying we have a KK(TBM)-King Kong from TB / Mischling. If you are lucky enough to get a TB. From 2 Mischlings it would be a KK ( TBMM) or whatever type of TB you have. This just keeps people honest and let's buyers know that they will get a percentage of Mischlings from their TBM / TBMM. Nothing worse than having Mischlings showing up in your TB. Breeding program when you thought you had purebreds.

Edited September 27, 2014 by ineke

[ineke]

http://shrimpkeepersforum.com/forum/uploads/monthly_05_2013/post-24-139909860423.jpg

This chart shows the connections

Edited September 27, 2014 by ineke

[Squiggle]

+1, good explanation Ineke.

[albash]

Thanks Ineke for your thorough explanation.

 

Now I feel confident and sure of my decision bought 4 panda few weeks ago was right. Initially bought them just to want to have pure panda offspring - but need to purge out first as the seller told me they might to have RW or bluebolt gene. I suppose I need to get few OEBT to open few more lines of variety as you have explained - having taitiibee and pinto.

 

Another quick question, how do I actually purge out other genes? Do I keep all panda offsprings separated and keep breeding until no other gene come out?

I suppose in this shrimp hobby, patience is the most crucial attribute one should to have. My CRS, mischilings, panda are very slow to grow up compared to chocolate shrimp.

[Squiggle]

The only real way is to just keep removing the shrimplets that aren't panda, but it sounds like they are pure TB if they have BB & WR genes, just have to concentrate on keeping the pandas.

[petfish]

 

Thanks Ineke for your thorough explanation.

 

Now I feel confident and sure of my decision bought 4 panda few weeks ago was right. Initially bought them just to want to have pure panda offspring - but need to purge out first as the seller told me they might to have RW or bluebolt gene. I suppose I need to get few OEBT to open few more lines of variety as you have explained - having taitiibee and pinto.

 

Another quick question, how do I actually purge out other genes? Do I keep all panda offsprings separated and keep breeding until no other gene come out?

I suppose in this shrimp hobby, patience is the most crucial attribute one should to have. My CRS, mischilings, panda are very slow to grow up compared to chocolate shrimp.

 yeah just keep the panda, send me the BB and WR please, LOL

[ineke]

There's no reason you can't keep the other TB's if you have spare tanks. It just depends on the colour you prefer . You can still use them in your Pinto breeding program to get the different colour Pintos. If you only use the Panda then you will mainly get black Pintos if you want the red then use the RW they are basically the same animal just different colours.

[petfish]

yeah, agree , if you have the tank space, go down some different path's

[jayc]

Great information Ineke.

 

We have this sort of valuable info all over the place.

 

It's time we put it together into one thread as a sticky.

Looking at you Ineke, to create a new sticky thread. (Or do you want me to?)

 

I have an updated Cardina Cantonensis Family tree to share ...

Edited October 2, 2014 by jayc

[ineke]

If you don't mind Jayc I will leave that to you. i use my ipad most of the time and have trouble with some of the actions needed.

[jayc]

Do I have your permission to cut&paste some of the excellent info posted above?

[ineke]

Definitely

[yeswaitnosorry]

So are all those shrimp on that chart Cardina cantonensis? ie they are all the same species and the variations are either 1) naturally occurring or 2) selectively bred descendants of the wild types? 

What is the difference between a Panda and a CBS?

[yeswaitnosorry]

I get so confused.

[ineke]

A Panda is a Taiwan Bee  A CBS is a Crystal Black Shrimp. They are all Caridina Cantonesis and will all interbreed however they don't just spontaneously appear- that is you won't suddenly get a Tiger or a Taiwan Bee from a Crystal Shrimp unless they have that bloodline in their background somewhere. That is the limit of my knowledge -I'm still learning and just when I think I know it something else comes along!!!!!    

[ineke]

Great information Ineke.

 

We have this sort of valuable info all over the place.

 

It's time we put it together into one thread as a sticky.

Looking at you Ineke, to create a new sticky thread. (Or do you want me to?)

 

I have an updated Cardina Cantonensis Family tree to share ...

 

Even this chart is now out dated as we don't have Tibees and Pintos on it!  Wonder what the next exciting installment will bring us and what wonderful patterns will start showing up??????

[jayc]

So are all those shrimp on that chart Cardina cantonensis? ie they are all the same species and the variations are either 1) naturally occurring or 2) selectively bred descendants of the wild types? 

 

 

Yes, all those in the chart I linked are Caridina Cantonensis. \

Caridina = Genus

Cantonensis = Species

 

This is the taxonomy tree for Caridina Cantonensis.

 

 

Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Arthropoda

Subphylum: Crustacea

Class: Malacostraca

Order: Decapoda

Infraorder: Caridea

Family: Atyidae

Genus: Caridina

Species: Cantonensis

 

There are other species under the Genus Caridina.

Sulawesi shrimp, for example, is a Caridina Dennerli.

Red Nose shrimp, for example, is a Caridina Gracilirostris.

 

 

 

What is the difference between a Panda and a CBS?

 

A Panda / CRS would be considered different Sub-species.

 

Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Arthropoda

Subphylum: Crustacea

Class: Malacostraca

Order: Decapoda

Infraorder: Caridea

Family: Atyidae

Genus: Caridina

Species: Cantonensis

Variant: Tiger, Taiwan Bee or Crystal or whatever.

 

So your Variants are Taiwan Bee, Tiger, Crystal. Subspecies are usually common names.

(caveat: Taiwan Bees might not be a true Variant. We need to go further back it's line to see if Taiwan Bees are a result of Tibees. If they are then it's just another colour variant)

 

The difference between Crystal Red and Crystal Black would be called a "colour variation" of the same species.

Then ... Crystal Red A grade versus a SSS grade would be considered a "colour variation" of the same variant.

 

Your Ruby Reds, Panda, King Kongs, Wine Reds and Shadow Pandas are all colour variations of the Taiwan Bee variant.

 

Now this starts getting shady when we talk about hybrids.

I think Tibee (Tiger x Crystal) and Mischling (Taiwan Bee x Crystal) would be considered as a subvariant, with colour variations of it's own.

 

 

Phew. And I haven't even touched on Neocaridinas yet. But it's similar. Except Neocaridina is the Genus. Davidii is the Species.

 

<edit - changed the term subspecies to variant, as that is a more suitable terminology as indicated by fishmosy>

Edited October 2, 2014 by jayc

[jayc]

 

 

Even this chart is now out dated as we don't have Tibees and Pintos on it!  Wonder what the next exciting installment will bring us and what wonderful patterns will start showing up??????

 

 

As explained above, Tibees and Pintos are hybrids, and thus are sub-sub species, with colour variations of their own. The variety would be as endless as mixing the colours of the rainbow. 

 

Tibees is listed in the updated chart. Just above the Taiwan Bees. 

If Pintos are a colour variation of a TaiTibee, then you'd just have an arrow from Taiwan Bee and Tibee to a box that shows the a mix of shrimps with various colours.

 

It's impossible to use one picture (or even 5) to depict the possible variations in Tibees, Pintos, TaiTibees and Mischlings. Throw in co-dominant and co-recessive genes into the mix and it's even harder.

Edited October 2, 2014 by jayc

[yeswaitnosorry]

So clarify for me: (for example): Panda and CBS  look similar  -( phenotype) but have different genotypes (however not different enough to prevent interbreeding, probably only different in the colour genes).

 

And all the different phenotypes (and genotypes) have been selectively bred originally, from some naturally occurring variants?

 

And to use the same example of Panda/CBS, they have ended up looking somewhat similar (depending on the grade), but have come about through different breeding pathways? And if you had a true breeding line of CBS and threw a Panda into the mix, are you likely to get anything with a "name"?

 

(I have been interested in horse colour genetics for a long time, now have to get my head around shrimps!)

[yeswaitnosorry]

And sorry to keep asking all these questions, but I figure that I may not be the only one who would like it explained simply and clearly for them.

[jayc]

So clarify for me: (for example): Panda and CBS  look similar  -( phenotype) but have different genotypes (however not different enough to prevent interbreeding, probably only different in the colour genes).

 

And all the different phenotypes (and genotypes) have been selectively bred originally, from some naturally occurring variants?

 

And to use the same example of Panda/CBS, they have ended up looking somewhat similar (depending on the grade), but have come about through different breeding pathways? And if you had a true breeding line of CBS and threw a Panda into the mix, are you likely to get anything with a "name"?

 

(I have been interested in horse colour genetics for a long time, now have to get my head around shrimps!)

 

All will be reveal in the separate post I'm drafting.

It's going to be simpler explaining it with a picture.

[ineke]

Great stuff  as always Jayc.

Unfortunately genetics is something I have always had trouble with explaining. It's complicated no matter which species you are breeding . The thing that I love though with the subspecies of shrimp is the not knowing what you are going to get. I love the excitement of a new batch of babies. I now have approximately 200 babies that came out of my TB/Mischling/Tibee tank that I have divided into 2 grow out tanks- they were very busy while I was away- and the variety of babies is amazing especially the blues with a bit of white on them (which I expect and hope will turn black) and all the "Pinto" pattern ones. I am waiting to hear from some of our more experienced breeders on this subject so I can decide where to go from here.

 

And sorry to keep asking all these questions, but I figure that I may not be the only one who would like it explained simply and clearly for them.

People asking questions is the way we all learn. 

[fishmosy]

I think I'll jump in here to correct a bit of terminology. We shouldn't call for example CBS and Panda different subspecies. Instead we should use the term 'variant' (or even 'breed'). The reason is that subspecies specifically apllies to a geographically isolated population of a species. If an individual from the isolated population is bred with an individual from another population, they will produce viable offspring (i.e. Offspring that will be capable of reproduction, i.e. Not infertile) so they are the same species. However they wont in breed in the wild because they are seperated by geographical boundaries (for example an ocean or a mountain range).

The Panda for example, is a colour variation that (A.) only appears in aquaria (i.e. Not wild) and (B.) is not geographically seperated from the CBS. The only reason why they might not breed is because their keeper keeps them seperated.

Edited October 2, 2014 by fishmosy