Mischling x tiger outcomes

[ninja]

Wat... no photos...

Likely story :p

Seriously though ninja did u know what f generation they were...?

Honcho,

I have been breeding Michlings for years so god knows how many F's they were.

The only straight CBS and CRS I've got now are the April sale 10 PRL CRS culls and the 5 PBL culls from Dean. So starting afresh with them now again as I now have more tanks.

When Marcus comes down again, I will get him to take pics for me. OK, trust me, I'm a fishermans wife!!!!!!!!

[ninja]

Im sure ninja knows about red wines but she specifically said red pandas...hence LIAR LIAR pants on FIRE!

I happen to like calling Wine Red, Red Panda, cause that's what they are, really, don't you agree????????

[Squiggle]

I believe you ninja, there is no reason not to :victorious:

[torface]

People say it doesn't happen, but theoretically it is possible, so i believe you ninja :)

[ineke]

You tell them Ninja !

[shrimpstan]

I recently had a Michling x Michling produce 2 black pandas and 2 red pandas. It was OMG when I saw them and you will just ave to believe me.

all well and good.. but they wont breed true will they? aren't they more likely just to produce mish offspring as they are not a true TB?

even if u use these 'red' and black pandas and crossed them with a true TB it would still produce mish yeah?

mish x mish might produce the odd 'TB'.. but that 'TB' isnt really a full blooded TB right?

[ninja]

Are TB's recessive? Come on all you experts out there?

[BlueBolts]

Great thought process, shrimpstan, and you're absolutely right. If a person buys a TB, from a TB x Mish parents, then TB x TB, will/may produce TB/Mish offsprings, whereas, TB x TB from F2/3+ generation will breed TRUE TB's, BUT another tangent of KK x KK = 100% KK off-springs Vs a mix of KK, WR & BB....etc so when buying TB's, ask the breeder, where it's heritage were derived from. I suspect most hobbyist wouldn't mind if the off-springs were KK, WR or BB, but if 50% plus were mishlings, then they maybe disappointed.

[ninja]

Are TB's recessive? Come on all you experts out there?

I repeat the above, are TB's reccessive?

[ninja]

all well and good.. but they wont breed true will they? aren't they more likely just to produce mish offspring as they are not a true TB?

even if u use these 'red' and black pandas and crossed them with a true TB it would still produce mish yeah?

mish x mish might produce the odd 'TB'.. but that 'TB' isnt really a full blooded TB right?

Shrimpstan, it depends on wether the TB is double recessive or not. If it is double recessive, then crossed with another double recessive it has to produce all TB's.

[smicko]

Just found this thread, I still have so much to learn lol. I recently got 6 mish of bb to see if I up to the tb level without dropping a heap of coin if something goes wrong. Being f3 mish if they breed together will the offspring be f3 or do I need to add a tb to keep them at that level? Also if I get extremely lucky and they breed for instance a male and female kk will breeding them together produce true kk or f4 mish with a percentage of kk?

Cheers mick

[ineke]

:cower: I went into shrimp keeping for fun:dejection: My brain cells are hurting:confused:

[smicko]

Oops I just asked the same question as shrimpstan in a different way lol.

Cheers mick

[smicko]

:cower: I went into shrimp keeping for fun:dejection: My brain cells are hurting:confused:

Your not alone ineke, my head hurts trying to understand as well lol

Cheers mick

[ninja]

Well if anyone knows whether TB's are from a recessive gene, it would be much easier to forecast?

[ineke]

Is it worth asking the question on a European site? Would they have any more knowledge and would they share? Perhaps Imke /shrimpsider could help?

[smicko]

Hi ninja. If you got pandas from mish, i would think it would be a recessive gene, much like albino. Now I only take that from breeding albino bristlenose. If two common bn throw albino thats recessive, if you breed the two albino together you get 100% albino thats double recessive. So if it works for fish it should be the same for shrimp.

Cheers mick

[ninja]

That's what I reckon too.

[BlueBolts]

TB genes are recessive, thus F generations affect the probability/outcome. Having F x F, dilutes the TB genes, so each F generation will need to be X back to a TB, to improve the recessiveness/genetic TB "carrier". F1 x F1 does NOT equate to F2...ONLY TB x F1 = F2, TB x F2 =F3...etc

[smicko]

So if fxf dilutes the genes would f3xf3 result in f2 as their is less likelyhood of producing tb?

Sorry bb but I want to be sure lol.

Cheers mick

[mr_c265]

This is all theoretical but:

F1xF1 definitely would not improve your chances of getting TB's from successive crosses (decreases it in fact) but, if you do get a TB from a f1xf1 and the TB gene is indeed recessive, breeding it with another f1xf1 TB should give you a pure TB and the babies from that with a TB would be pure TB's also.

If it doesn't then the simple genetics model doesn't fit, which happens.

Then there are all kinds of things to consider like sex linked genes (as in females have a higher carrying 'x' gene (as in example) than males).

Get a geneticist on the case and you'll know in 10 years :p

F1xF1 has according to simple genetic models a 50% chance of getting back a F1 mischling, 25% chance of TB and a 25% chance of CRS/CBS. Any deviations from this suggest that there are other factors at work. The 25% chance of a CRS/CBS is the reason that F1xF1 isn't as good as a F1 mischling, because you could get the crystal back and not even know, then you cross that crystal with a F1 and you very quickly lose the TB genes.

Also, crossing a F1 with a TB should have a 50/50 chance of TB's and a 50/50 chance of getting back a F1, according to the simple genetics models, F1 and F2 shouldn't be different. Again, these models are often poor fits for many species.

Just food for thought.

[ninja]

Just found this thread' date=' I still have so much to learn lol. I recently got 6 mish of bb to see if I up to the tb level without dropping a heap of coin if something goes wrong. Being f3 mish if they breed together will the offspring be f3 or do I need to add a tb to keep them at that level? Also if I get extremely lucky and they breed for instance a male and female kk will breeding them together produce true kk or f4 mish with a percentage of kk?

Cheers mick[/quote']

When I first started I had trouble keeping female TB's alive. Now I have RO water and chillers its different!

if you want my advice, buy female Michlings and a male TB. (much cheaper way to go) The Michling females are stronger and depending on their parentage will produce TB's for you. The resulting TB's will be much healthier and then you can keep crossing these together to improve your percentages of TB's. This is going to involve more than one tank. The phenotype TB's go into a separate tank as soon as they are old enough to start on your pure TB line. Any Michlings they produce go back into the first tank as long as they are female.

[ninja]

I have 2 WR from Michling x Michling if they are a pair, I could breed them down the track to see what they produce. I don't really want to have a separate tank just for that if its already been done. Anyone done it???? ?????

[BlueBolts]

G'Day Mick, F3 x F3 is a dilution BUt not neccessarily equate to F2. As TB's a recessive genes, it's Hit/Miss...

IMO & Understanding ...

AA = TB

Aa = Mishling

aa = No TB genes (CRS/CBS/SW/GB)

AA x aa = 100% Aa (i.e. F1 Mishling)

Aa x Aa = Aa & aa (i.e. Dilution and due to recessive genes, it's a hit/miss with "aa" not carrying the TB genetics

AA x Aa = (?)% Aa and (?)% AA (Depends of the F generation, and TB genetics, i.e. is the TB from AA x Aa (i.e. TB x Mish)

AA x AA = 100 (?) % AA (Depends on the TB genetics, i.e. is the TB from AA x Aa (i.e. TB x Mish), and F? for the Mishling

aa x Aa = (?)% aa & (?)% Aa (i.e. Dilution and due to recessive genes, it's a hit/miss with "aa" not carrying the TB genetics

Now, I've got a headache ! LOL

[smicko]

We all need a panadol the size of a bus lol. Thanks for that bb

Or as the wife says "it's a shrimp it breed shrimp" lol

Cheers mick