Let the Mischling breeding begin!!!

[hsoje]

So it begins the mischling breeding program!!!!

i was lucky enough to grab some of deans F3/4 mischlings in the shrimp sale, shrimp arrived last Friday and since then I've noticed 2 females berried (I think one arrived berried thanks dean!!).

Anyway I'm starting this thread to share my breeding program and hopefully inspire more people to get into TB and mischlings. I've chosen to start with mischlings primarily due to cost and to increase the success rate. I plan on investing in some pure TBs in the coming weeks to cross back when my new tank has finished cycling. In the mean time there being housed in my other shrimp tank.

heres some pics of the 2 lady's!!

thanks josh

[Squiggle]

Very nice dude, I will definitely be following this thread :encouragement:

[hsoje]

Very nice dude' date=' I will definitely be following this thread :encouragement:[/quote']

Thanks bud hopefully being F3/4 theil produce some TB's

[BlueBolts]

Great idea, and thanks for sharing your journey. Those Mishling's look great ! The "uglier/dirtier" they look compared to a CRS/CBS, the better I reckon....just an urban myth though.

There's reports that mishling x mishling produced TB's ...... trying to convince the person to post a thread !

[CNgo2006]

Great idea' date=' and thanks for sharing your journey. Those Mishling's look great ! The "uglier/dirtier" they look compared to a CRS/CBS, the better I reckon....just an urban myth though.

There's reports that mishling x mishling produced TB's ...... trying to convince the person to post a thread ![/quote']

3 of my berried mischling girls dropped their babies, now there are lot's of little ones around but I can't find a TB among them so I guess my BB did not end up doing the deed with any of them! :sorrow: Will have to seperate him with few girls. So that myth is not looking good in my eyes.

[MrShrimp]

Wow that second mishling looks Awesum. Good luck with your breeding program .

[hsoje]

No problem guys.. Yeh I've tried to do the best research I can and the info out there is hit and miss with mishling x mishling. The theory of higher F grades having a higher chance of TBs is controversial depending which model you use. Then again that's the purpose of this project, guess Weil have to wait and see.

[JPN07]

Looks like you of to a good start Josh. Well done.

[BlueBolts]

No problem guys.. Yeh I've tried to do the best research I can and the info out there is hit and miss with mishling x mishling. The theory of higher F grades having a higher chance of TBs is controversial depending which model you use. Then again that's the purpose of this project' date=' guess Weil have to wait and see.[/quote']

Personally, Ive found a few TB's in my mishling tank, BUT have put it down to net transfer. Genetically, the possibility is there though.

Higher F grades mishlings with better % of TB's genes = greater potential # of TB shrimplets, I totally agree with. Several hobbyist may refer to say a F2 mishling x CRS = F3 mishling. This is not the case. A next generation mishling has to be X with a TB for it to be termed F+.

[hsoje]

Sorry BB Im confused. What your saying is that to let say get a f2 mishling your F1 must cross with a TB thus producing a F2 mischling.

My understanding was

F0=TBxCRS/CBS/GB/SW giving F1 mishlings

if you then crossed the F1 mishlings from the same batch to eachother so F1 mishling x F1 mishling this would then be considered a F2 mishling. Or is a TB cross at each generation needed to truly be considered a F2 in this example

Then again both senarios would eventuate in a higher % of TB genes, but of course a TB cross would give a higher TB gene percentage

[HexaD]

Wow, that second mischling is sexy! I'm sure you will get results if you persevere, maybe an easy way is to get internal net breeding box and put the mischlings in with the BB

[BlueBolts]

Just say ...

F1 Mishling contain 10% TB genetics ...

F1 x TB = F2 contain 15% TB genetics ...

F2 x TB = F3 contain 20% TB genetics ...

F3 x TB = F4 contain 25% TB genetics ...

BUT

F2 x F2 = F1 (?) contain >10% TB genetics

Note ..... the % is just a number, no idea what the % crossover would be to each generation, as it depends on a number of factors.

So if you crossed a F3+ mishling, the possiblity of getting a TB isn't too bad.. I think honcho got a F2/F3 mishling off me and he had 10+ TB's (?), so the % is so variable, and difficult to know for sure .....

Hope this clears it up ? Pretty sure I wrote a thread a while ago about this...maybe worth while to pull it back up ?

[KiwiBigD]

That's good information there Bluebolt, there is so much research to be done in regards to these crosses and you really need to be a trained geneticist

to put it all together, really is a complex science. Also sounds like honcho was a lucky man as well, nice!

I've got to ask though, the percentages just don't look right. If you take a KK x CRS you end up with a Mishling that in theory contains 50% TB genes

due to its parentage, half dad (KK) half mum (CRS). And the result being an F1 Mishling.

If you then put the F1 Mishling back with the same KK surely the percentage on the TB side increases to 75% and the CRS component down to 25%

So why is it that an F2 only contains theoretically 15% TB genetics? That's a high differential or are we now moving into dominant/recessive genes

taking Alleles into account as well?

[BlueBolts]

Yes, as I said..."Note ..... the % is just a number, no idea what the % crossover would be to each generation, as it depends on a number of factors" ... no idea whether it becomes 50/50, depends where TB's are originally from, and whether your TB is from a mishling ? The genetical combination goes further back. i.e..... All my BB are breeding 100% true.......BUT if I cross my BB with a KK, that's from a KK x Mish parent, then genetically it's offsprings wouldn't carry 100% TB .... and as you said, there the factor of dominant/recessive genes etc.... as well.

[KiwiBigD]

I'm trying to get a feel for rough percentages, having done a fair amount of investigation there isn't a lot of published information so figured I'd ask as our resident Blue

Bolt expert ;-) Lots more research to do yet, plus experimentation as well. Like that idea

[BlueBolts]

Yep, need to start with a TRUE base stock...i.e. TB breeding TRUE at 100%....then a group of CRS breeding TRUE at 100%, then X breeding them, and averaging out the results etc.... Start with 8 tanks, then 24, then 76 .......so much time, effort and variables..... I've given up, and just focus on their breeding ....

[DG17]

BB your last comment just covered what i was about to ask. so if you breed a pure KK with both KK parents with a KK that has one Mish parent then potentially there is a chance that all the offspring wont be KK?

I think the Genotype of the shrimp far outweighs the pheno type?

I wonder does sex effect the ratio??

for example if you have a a KK male from KK parents and a mishling female F3 will the possibly produce a higher % than say a KK female from pure kk parents and an F3 Male? its prob wiser to have the KK Male as Kk females would be weaker during birth and so forth but ive wondered that..

[KiwiBigD]

Yep' date=' need to start with a TRUE base stock...i.e. TB breeding TRUE at 100%....then a group of CRS breeding TRUE at 100%, then X breeding them, and averaging out the results etc.... Start with 8 tanks, then 24, then 76 .......so much time, effort and variables..... I've given up, and just focus on their breeding ....[/quote']

Yeah I know ;-) I've considered this myself hence I'm restricting myself but having a few selected breeding tanks so I can experiment a bit. But getting TB 100% breeding true

is the hard part. I've done that on my CBSs but I'm new to TBs with a mixture of success so far which I'm hoping to improve on.

[BlueBolts]

DG17 - "Yes & Perhaps" to all your questions....

KiwiBigD - Getting TB's to breed TRUE (type (i.e. WR, KK, BB NOT pattern) is pretty easy...only needed 2-3 generations. My KK & WR was breeding 95+% true, until I just recently mixed them up to improve their genetics, but my BB's are breeding 100% TRUE. Once I get 2 generations which is like 2-4 months, I'll split my KK & WR again, and get them breeding TRUE.

[OzShrimp]

DG17 - "Yes & Perhaps" to all your questions....

KiwiBigD - Getting TB's to breed TRUE (type (i.e. WR' date=' KK, BB NOT pattern) is pretty easy...only needed 2-3 generations. My KK & WR was breeding 95+% true, until I just recently mixed them up to improve their genetics, but my BB's are breeding 100% TRUE. Once I get 2 generations which is like 2-4 months, I'll split my KK & WR again, and get them breeding TRUE.[/quote']

Any plans on writing an article on this high level breeding stuff for us low level breeding types lol :P, I can never even remember what F1 F2 F3 and the likes are lol

[Squiggle]

Totally BB, should make a sticky :encouragement:

[KiwiBigD]

What he said! --^

[KiwiBigD]

DG17 - "Yes & Perhaps" to all your questions....

KiwiBigD - Getting TB's to breed TRUE (type (i.e. WR' date=' KK, BB NOT pattern) is pretty easy...only needed 2-3 generations. My KK & WR was breeding 95+% true, until I just recently mixed them up to improve their genetics, but my BB's are breeding 100% TRUE. Once I get 2 generations which is like 2-4 months, I'll split my KK & WR again, and get them breeding TRUE.[/quote']

And I'm putting aside money now for you mate ;-) You do realise that by legal definition I'm beginning to think 'Shrimp Keeping' is technically a drug?!? Be my dealer ;-) Please

[hsoje]

Great information guys!! realy its ask one question which in turn raises 5 questions obviously its a topic of high controversy and conjecture. To think all that would be needed to solve this problem is a Geneticist to sequence the DNA over several Generations. Then weid have some sort of pattern but at the same time potentially ruined the hobby. Maybe its a problem thats not meant to be solved?

Going back to BB, thanks for clearing that up! so the product of my F3/4 mish x F3/4 mish is defined as a F1 but if you go by genetic percentage basis could really be anything. (hope i got that right)

I think this is a topic that for newbies into the shrimp breeding/TB world have a hard time wrapping there head around since available information is limited. Could this be due to the nature of this hobby where breeders keep techniques and research a secret because the amount of potential $..?

I dont if one already exists but a Sticky thread on the topic of genetics and terminology might be a good idea. Could even potentially increase number of people keeping TB's.

thanks......

[Squiggle]

And I'm putting aside money now for you mate ;-) You do realise that by legal definition I'm beginning to think 'Shrimp Keeping' is technically a drug?!? Be my dealer ;-) Please

You're only just figuring it out? Lol, Dean is my dealer, he's an awesome pusher! Hahaha