We may have discussed this before but I can't find the thread. When does the KK pattern end up having to  be a Panda or is it a cull KK. Is there a standard? I know the basics of the colours but when is there too much white on a KK? I notice now there are even white KK???? It would be good to have some sort of pattern chart for the TB's now as there are so many patterns where a year ago we only basically had KK ,Panda ,Shadow Panda and BB. 

Also when  does one decide that a Mischling is in fact a TBM or TBMM. At one stage it had been stated -in a thread by BB - that a discerning factor was TB/TBM/TBMM had black faces but now I see so many TB with white faces that I guess that fact has been thrown out.

I ask because I find it hard now that so many more people are breeding TBM /TBMM and Mischling and some I have seen advertised while very beautiful shrimp just look like really good Crystals with dark colouring and so therefore should be classified as Mischling.

I have quite a colony of baby Mischlings with very good dark markings but to me they remain Mischling because of the white faces- I would love to be able to call them TBM/TBMM but find it hard to give up the early views of breeding but could be convinced  . 

I think it is time that we open a discussion and to see if there is infact already a standard for them as I can't seem to find one.

A color chart would be a good idea especially for an amateur like me who often better confused by these terms.

This chart is my favourite reference!!

Does that help?

A lot of people work on once the middle white band stretches all the way down the body, it becomes panda not KK.

thanks Jamie but not for me so much.The Pandas on that chart don't look like the Pandas we generally have -there is no banding or stripes there at all. Also it shows the KK with 1 or 2 white areas I would like to see more examples. Again these all have coloured faces and a lot of what is being offered for sale and auction don't have coloured faces so we need clarification. 

I know generally when you look at your tank of Mischling/TB/TBM the colouring of the TB/TBM is  generally quite distinct but I am finding the quality of Mischlings now seems to be much higher -before they looked like low grade CBS but some of the Mischlings I have would pass for high grade CBS. I think this seems to be happening in a lot of colonies now. I still think white face = mischling and black face is as per your chart a TB/TBM. i'm just finding it hard to see the difference in the ones we are seeing advertised to me even going by this chart the so called TB offered don't have the coloured face so are they TB?

I hope I'm making myself clear- maybe first of all I'm asking do TB have to have coloured faces? If yes then we need to look carefully before bidding on some of the shrimp being offered for sale.

It is confusing and there is a vast difference in quality of shrimps on offer. You can get KK that have hood, white around face, but still black faced.

I think there are others better qualified than me to assist with this question!!

Edited October 29, 201411 yr by newbreed

I'm probably being a bit pedantic and not moving with the times. It would be good to get some clarification though. i don't sell mine and don't intend to but eventually i would like to get a few more pure TB so want to be sure what I'm getting. On the other hand I have a beautiful little KK TBM and another 5 shadow panda TBM and if i can get them to breeding age I might just use my own breeding. I still think as a group it would be good to have a standard that we accept at least for sales on our site.

There was also a good guide to grading in Breeders n Keepers vol 2. That showed some different variations in patterns.

Unfortunately I didn't buy the magazine so didn't see the article. I will just have to move with the times and accept that thoughts change as the hobby progresses. i basically was a bit more worried about newcomers buying shrimp that may not be what they think they are. It all goes back to trust in the breeder/seller. As I said I won't be selling mine- classic shrimp hoarder me -

but it would be good to know.

Comes down to people making sure they describe their shrimp correctly at time of sale, if they sell.

Is it possible to get an image of the example concerning you in particular?

I won't put up pictures of shrimp that aren't mine as the owners don't have a say but they have been on Facebook recently.My little ones are still too small for my camera to focus. I know 1 is a  definate KK   - the ones that I have reservations about look like really good CBS - I am going to continue to call them Mischlings - when they mature a bit I will put up some pictures at this stage it looks like the very tip of their face may be black in which case I guess they would be Panda. It's all good just learning curves for us all i think. The TB's seem to have come on in leaps and bounds very quickly with their different types of patterns -as they originally do come from the same family I guess this shouldn't be a surprise and of course now the Pintos coming onto the scene it will bring even more variety. Exciting times ahead for shrimp keeping.

Yeah I had some beautiful red mischlings, could have past for prl, but pure white face.

The red was so deep and solid, more than regular mischling.

But I let them go as mischling. No red face not red wine. IMHO.

That's exactly what I was getting at Jamie- next time there are auctions or sales on elsewhere just check out the faces on some of the TB that are offered. Although they are beautiful shrimp their faces have no colour  but it seems to be acceptable now where 12/18 months ago they were not. I'm not saying they are not pure TB I just think a standard needs to be set.

I have been participating in some of the Auctions and agree, some of the items listed are questionable.

I have noticed since I started listing mine as Tbm and with parentage listed I have recieved many pms asking what Tbm means. I have started seeing others using it now. I guess it is just setting the example and hoping others will follow suit.

That's where this forum is extra important as the newbies can learn what to look for prior to purchase.

Edited October 31, 201411 yr by newbreed

Yes if we can get that message out there it will save trouble down the track. I have been reading on other forums and the net in general and a lot of miss information is out there. I don't think people are knowingly being dishonest but I do see that there seems to be less pure line TB and unfortunately it will only get worse as the genetics get more and more mixed. 

I love the pintos but can you have a pure TB with Pinto breeding? This is one of the latest pure lines being offered. Surely to get Pinto initially we introduced Tiger and then Tibee? "Technically" they are the same family so again "Technically" they are all pure line but in reality they are hybrids and therefore can not be pure. Please correct me anyone I am only putting out my understanding but once you get into true genetics then I am lost so what I am saying could be wrong in which case I apologise.

I have been participating in some of the auctions

What auctions?

Is that where the SKF auctions have gone?

Edited October 31, 201411 yr by newbreed

The SKF auctions may be back on soon. Should not have mentioned that other site and have removed reference to it! Apologies!

But Ineke has a good point. The only reason I have pinto type babies is that someone sold me a TB male, but did not mention there was pinto genes, hence my surprise! Once the pinto gene gets into a line, pure TB breeding isn't possible.

And mine was born from F7 Mischling mums, are the Mischling babies F8/f1 with pinto gene??

And the TB type babies, are they Tibees or TB with pinto gene. The pinto type bubs look like spotted head, my minimal understanding is these come from TB selective breeding and Zebra from crossing to Tibee.

It's a bit confusing! Wasn't prepared!

It's my own fault for buying outside of my normal breeder contacts but it comes back to that. Only buy from who you trust when you can.

Edited October 31, 201411 yr by newbreed

There are several sites that have sales and 1 auction site -well 2 but under the same banner. They are not SKF. They are doing well and we should have some again here especially the live auctions as people are participating. Just need some willing sellers. DON'T LOOK TO ME -ME HOARD NOT SELL- I just like to watch! 

The SKF auctions may be back on soon. Should not have mentioned that other site and have removed reference to it! Apologies!

But Ineke has a good point. The only reason I have pi to type babies is that someone sold me a TB male, but did not mention there was pinto genes, hence my surprise! Once the pinto gene gets into a line, pure TB breeding isn't possible.

And mine was born from F7 Mischling mums, are the Mischling babies F8/f1 with pinto gene??

And the TB type babies, are they Tibees or TB with pinto gene. The pinto type bubs look like spotted head, my minimal understanding is these come from TB selective breeding and Zebra from crossing to Tibee.

It's my own fault for buying outside of my normal breeder contacts but it comes back to that. Only buy from who you trust when you can.

 

 

This is exactly what I mean about mixing the genes and where they come from. The seller did say on the auction -not sure if that is one you bought- that the shrimp was a pure TB from his Pinto line- or with Pinto genes- can't remember exactly his wording now and pretty sure the thread gets removed. At least it was written but it was written to make the buy look better than just a plain TB- confusion reigns.

-I have a beautiful Extreme KK just black with a bit of  white on the tail but it came from my mixed tank .I have no idea if it is from my BB or my Tibee female. 

This is exactly what I mean about mixing the genes and where they come from. The seller did say on the auction -not sure if that is one you bought- that the shrimp was a pure TB from his Pinto line- or with Pinto genes- can't remember exactly his wording now and pretty sure the thread gets removed. At least it was written but it was written to make the buy look better than just a plain TB- confusion reigns.

-I have a beautiful Extreme KK just black with a bit of  white on the tail but it came from my mixed tank .I have no idea if it is from my BB or my Tibee female.

So the only way to know is to breed it and see what drops. That just means you will have to spend extra time, breeding cycle, to know its heritage.

That is why I cleared my TBM tank, I had to make sure I knew that the current tank has pinto gene offspring in it and nothing else. And sold them off while I knew their history. Another breeder bought the same time I did and we have identified and contacted the seller of the pinto gene TB. He was as confused as me.

Ineke i think whats confusing you are the mkk mosura bb correct?

Im pretty sure tb from pinto you are talking about are tb with pinto genes as they have put in descriptions of auctions. The only issues i have seen are TB, TBM, TBMM again that is the sellers responsibility to explain properly in sales post but as you have mentioned some dont even know themselves as they could have purchased them as pure thenselves.

The rest have been described properly in their posts. Just more variety now which means more learning on our part as shrimp hobbyists.

Edited November 7, 201411 yr by CNgo2006

Like this guy?

_{so true guys it is hard to prove exotic genes in the shrimp you buy you are really at the mercy of the seller and hope they are honest, grading KK I use a method that was used to determine a few of my early ones by a couple of the top European breeders to be a KK none of the white bands can go all the way around the body the only exception would be a very thin tail band in a 2 stripe KK. I know a lot of people seem to use a percentage of black 70% plus makes it kk that is confusing and too vague that's why I like the band method simple and easy if the bands go around Panda if they don't KK yes it does mean you get a lot less kk but the ones you do are spectacular and there is no argument as there is no interpretations its simple and visual.}

Don't know if this help much but I found this grading graph on FB the other day & I would think that "lined" & "saddled" would be KK pattern & "banded" would be panda pattern, thoughts?

Like this guy?

yes Chi this type and others that are similar, I know they are now on the chart so therefore accepted as TB.If you look at our discussions about TB /TBM /TBMM back in 2012/13 when admittedly we didn't have as much variety -the defining characteristic between TB etc and Mischling was the black face. Now we have pure Tb with white face- so what now defines a mischling from a TBM/TBMM especially as the quality of the Mischlings is so much better now -depth of colour on some is really really good.. It is just getting harder to know which are true TB.

 

Then the Pinto gene- can a TB with pinto gene be a pure TB? Isn't it accepted that the Pinto comes from mixed genetics? So when a pure Tb with Pinto genes is offered up for sale -what is it it really?

 

It's all just food for thought I'm not trying to be difficult just trying to get my head around it. It is good to get people discussing this , getting their thoughts and setting standards.