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Come over on the weekend and pick up the ones in my tank Ineke. There is about 4 berried girls there.

Yes different gene pool but still tibee 100% as any cross of the given sp would result in a tibee.AS with the tb even if from different parents the % of tb is f4 no gain no loss.

Yes there needs to be a definite clarifacation made but the diff between breeding tb minshling with minshling is the % of tb not getting higher but,but saying that your % is not going back either so in my opinionF4tbminshling x tbF4minshling you are still at F4 as you are noy gaining or loosing % of tb gene. With tibee x tibee % is still 100% and crossing tibee with minshling or any other bee shrimp you get 100% tibee and tibee cross tiger 100% tibee as they are a hybreed.

I think I'll jump in here to correct a bit of terminology. We shouldn't call for example CBS and Panda different subspecies. Instead we should use the term 'variant' (or even 'breed'). The reason is that subspecies specifically apllies to a geographically isolated population of a species. If an individual from the isolated population is bred with an individual from another population, they will produce viable offspring (i.e. Offspring that will be capable of reproduction, i.e. Not infertile) so they are the same species. However they wont in breed in the wild because they are seperated by geographical boundaries (for example an ocean or a mountain range). The Panda for example, is a colour variation that (A.) only appears in aquaria (i.e. Not wild) and (B.) is not geographically seperated from the CBS. The only reason why they might not breed is because their keeper keeps them seperated.

Great stuff as always Jayc. Unfortunately genetics is something I have always had trouble with explaining. It's complicated no matter which species you are breeding . The thing that I love though with the subspecies of shrimp is the not knowing what you are going to get. I love the excitement of a new batch of babies. I now have approximately 200 babies that came out of my TB/Mischling/Tibee tank that I have divided into 2 grow out tanks- they were very busy while I was away- and the variety of babies is amazing especially the blues with a bit of white on them (which I expect and hope will turn black) and all the "Pinto" pattern ones. I am waiting to hear from some of our more experienced breeders on this subject so I can decide where to go from here. People asking questions is the way we all learn.

ps. Even if your shrimps are healthy, it pays to read the Shrimp Disease and Diagnosis sticky. So you recognise issues if and when they do arise.

eventually by removing any red shrimp you will end up loosing the red gene, it may take awhile but it WILL happen Ineke, the red gene will be lost when the shrimp carrying it die and the shrimp that are born red are removed from the gene pool, just keep going :)

Ineke, This again relates to the topic of Dominant and Recessive genes. The Blue would be the dominant colour gene, and Red the recessive colour gene. Despite not showing up in your last 3 generations, the red recessive gene is still carried by one or more of your Rili. When those two Blue Rilis carrying the red recessive genes got together, they produced some reds. I'm going to add a little table in my draft post that will hopefully go towards showing how dominant and recessive genes are carried over and how some % of shrimp will inherit certain features (colour in this case). This is the beauty of nature. We would all look the same if it were not for the complexity of genes. <edit> - We are only talking about colour genes. Wait until we introduce genes for other features. Like shorter rostrums, or Red eye or Orange eye features, etc...

Don't forget also Tibee F1 X CBS or BLUE TIGER Parent = F2. But TIBEE F1Xany bee shrimp=F2 TIBEE F1X any tiger shrimp=F2 would not be the same genealogy anymore. The Filial number would go back to F1. Draw it as a picture. Start with two shrimp, the parents. The offspring is connected to the parents. As soon as a shrimp is added that is not linked to either parents or offspring, the Filial number starts again. F4 Mischling from one parent X with another F4 Mischling from a different set of parents also go back to F1.

I don't think everyone has seen this yet. I'm going to send a sorry newsletter about this and a couple of other things this weekend.

Beeling

I found one of my cherries like this a few weeks ago but couldn't find anything out about it until I read this post.. Have since removed the shrimp with the same symptoms :( Here's a study of the Illness, https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.abpv.vet.br/upload/documentos/DOWNLOAD-FULL-ARTICLE-7-20881_2012_3_30_15_3.pdf&sa=U&ei=BvksVOuQHsvdaMXugNAO&ved=0CA0QFjAB&usg=AFQjCNG7c91tKFZvPSsKXqaKHbUc8DPJLg It's a pdf.

As explained above, Tibees and Pintos are hybrids, and thus are sub-sub species, with colour variations of their own. The variety would be as endless as mixing the colours of the rainbow. Tibees is listed in the updated chart. Just above the Taiwan Bees. If Pintos are a colour variation of a TaiTibee, then you'd just have an arrow from Taiwan Bee and Tibee to a box that shows the a mix of shrimps with various colours. It's impossible to use one picture (or even 5) to depict the possible variations in Tibees, Pintos, TaiTibees and Mischlings. Throw in co-dominant and co-recessive genes into the mix and it's even harder.

Yes, all those in the chart I linked are Caridina Cantonensis. \ Caridina = Genus Cantonensis = Species This is the taxonomy tree for Caridina Cantonensis. Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Arthropoda Subphylum: Crustacea Class: Malacostraca Order: Decapoda Infraorder: Caridea Family: Atyidae Genus: Caridina Species: Cantonensis There are other species under the Genus Caridina. Sulawesi shrimp, for example, is a Caridina Dennerli. Red Nose shrimp, for example, is a Caridina Gracilirostris. A Panda / CRS would be considered different Sub-species. Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Arthropoda Subphylum: Crustacea Class: Malacostraca Order: Decapoda Infraorder: Caridea Family: Atyidae Genus: Caridina Species: Cantonensis Variant: Tiger, Taiwan Bee or Crystal or whatever. So your Variants are Taiwan Bee, Tiger, Crystal. Subspecies are usually common names. (caveat: Taiwan Bees might not be a true Variant. We need to go further back it's line to see if Taiwan Bees are a result of Tibees. If they are then it's just another colour variant) The difference between Crystal Red and Crystal Black would be called a "colour variation" of the same species. Then ... Crystal Red A grade versus a SSS grade would be considered a "colour variation" of the same variant. Your Ruby Reds, Panda, King Kongs, Wine Reds and Shadow Pandas are all colour variations of the Taiwan Bee variant. Now this starts getting shady when we talk about hybrids. I think Tibee (Tiger x Crystal) and Mischling (Taiwan Bee x Crystal) would be considered as a subvariant, with colour variations of it's own. Phew. And I haven't even touched on Neocaridinas yet. But it's similar. Except Neocaridina is the Genus. Davidii is the Species. <edit - changed the term subspecies to variant, as that is a more suitable terminology as indicated by fishmosy>

A Panda is a Taiwan Bee A CBS is a Crystal Black Shrimp. They are all Caridina Cantonesis and will all interbreed however they don't just spontaneously appear- that is you won't suddenly get a Tiger or a Taiwan Bee from a Crystal Shrimp unless they have that bloodline in their background somewhere. That is the limit of my knowledge -I'm still learning and just when I think I know it something else comes along!!!!!

There seems to be a lot of confusion on this topic. Someone needs to write an article once and for all that can be a sticky thread.

I personally don't use the marketplace as i can never see to get my ads up , i add pictures and then it tells me to add pictures I add more then it tells me they are too big ( im using my phone so cant do anything about the size ) I vote go back to the old way