zebra shrimp conditions

[revolutionhope]

im thinking of getting some of these instead of getting dark cherries which I was also considering.

im hoping to get some tips about how to keep them and breed them ie water parameters, how to buffer ph of tank, temperatures, preferred plants, substrate? what diet? any pitfalls to avoid? yada yada etc etc...

northboy suggested i can keep them in same conditions as crystal shrimp but given that I have never kept crystal shrimp that doesn't help me all that much!

if there is already a guide for them on the forum here I can't seem to find it :-( I wonder how big do they get and do they reacg maturity within a few months or so like cherries do?

love n peace

[fishmosy]

Best places to look are here, here and here.

http://shrimpkeepersforum.com/forum/index.php/topic/2476-fishmosys-zebra-shrimp-biotope-tank/

http://shrimpkeepersforum.com/forum/index.php/topic/6006-wahoo-definitely-happy-dance-time/

http://shrimpkeepersforum.com/forum/index.php/topic/5193-tully-gorge-home-of-the-zebra-shrimp/

[revolutionhope]

fishmosy to the rescue lol thanks

[northboy]

At the moment they are in

 

PH 7

GH 1

KH 1

Temp 16 to 20 at the moment and been up to 28, they are in a pond out side

Ben can do a TDS test when he get here this morning

 

Bob

Edited May 13, 2015 by northboy

[revolutionhope]

tnx guys

[fishmosy]

TDS is 34.

[revolutionhope]

mmm thats very low. thanking you ben

[fishmosy]

No worries. Last time we measured it as 12-14 TDS in their natural habitat.

[northboy]

I have Coral in the pond Ben measured to lift the TDS and hardness and they will go much higher

 

Bob

[revolutionhope]

cool I think im going to have to get some in the next week or two if they're still available :-)

[revolutionhope]

im wondering has anyone othrr than bob successfully bred more than 1 or 2 generations of these beautiful creatures?

well since asking this question I've read close to everything I can find about them now and from previous threads on this and other forums and still havent found any clear evidence of anyone else breeding them successfully yet?

from what northboy and others say it sounds like temperatures, too high of TDS and viruses from other shrimps are the key things that catch most people out?

I was hoping to use an existing canister filter which is currently running in a 2foot tank with an guppy in there to keep feeding the bacteria while im deciding what species to put in there but it sounds like I might have to start fresh because the filter comes from a cherry shrimp and could harbour nasties which zebs have no acquired immunity to?

my tanks are all next to northfacing windows though so would the UV be enough to take care of it perhaps?

I think these creatures are absolutely wonderful and would make a wonderful native addition to the oz shrimp scene if they can be habituated to aquarium conditions.

im nervous to try these given that bluebolts squiggles fishmosy among other exemplary aussie shrimpers have not managed to keep a colony of them breeding well for long! i still think im game for a challenge and ready for a steep learning curve considering there are so many wonderful minds on skf to tap into!

I believe that an ongoing discussion about keeping zebs maybe helpful for many here because as mentioned above ive seen enthusiastic posts by some highly talented breeders in the past only for the threads to die off sadly :-(

really looking forward to more input on this !!

love n peace

will

Edited May 18, 2015 by revolutionhope

[northboy]

Hi Will

 

Explained it in the PM roughly, will write and article about it and most will be OFFENDED as it all come down to water quality not water make up so much, Crystal and Cherry types are conditioned to poorer aquarium water conditions being line breed for a long time, new species of any aquatic critter are more touchy to pollutants and over feeding= poorer water quality.

 

As most shrimp including Crystal and Cherry types come from higher up creeks the water has less or no  NO3 and phosphates as well as other pollutants we can not measure, water changes, not over crowding, not mixing species to make more pollutants same as over crowding and feeding sparingly is the key, they are not use to the high processed foods we offer YET,  KISS  keep it simple stupid.

 

I keep the food to leaves, a bit of various flakes at times, timber and Algae wafers, water change heaps and thats about it, water quality stays in the soft range under 100 on Bens TDS meeter and PH ranges 6.8 to 7.2, tap water comes out up here at PH7.2 and around 60 to 70 on TDS meeter, if I don't keep Coral in the water the PH will drop to 6.8ish and with coral it stays 7.2ish, more coral the higher the PH will go that one is a trial and error and really the coral only apply's to really soft tap or starting water.

 

I have had many conversations with people that have lost the Zebs and it always come back to poor water, if I say that I can sense the wall go up, not me I am a good keeper and my other shrimp are OK, yep the other shrimp are use to pollutants in aquariums and we all have them I sure do, but in the Zebra tanks/ponds I keep the feed down and the water change up, its hard where the water is not good, so the solution is keep the number down and keep the feeding down, feeding being the main one.

 

There is a number of new species up here that will be tough for a while but worthy of persistence, Ben got to see a few on the week end just past.

 

In a nut shell the longer aquatic critters are breed in thanks the more we are selecting Aquarium conditioned animals, unknowing that we are doing it, history shows well critters that were hard years ago are easy now, Bristle nose are a classic 35 years ago few people could breed them, now any one can, L number cats are the same 15 years ago hard now easier, I am sure I read Crystal types were hard to breed years ago. Neon Tetras were a tricky one 50 years ago now they are easy, it goes on and on a bit like I do.

 

As a guide colour is a sign that the water is not to there liking, as we can not see sick animals like we can in fish, we have to use colour as a tell tail, the first sigh a Zeb will give of being stressed is they turn blue in place of black then zebras will loose colour if not happy with there water and long term exposure to that will stress them and bring on sick animals then dead and I like many have few ideas about shrimp diseases knowing when it to late and the battle is lost.

 

Blue in a lot of native shrimp at least is a stress sign, Ben and I caught some Malanda shrimp on Sunday and near the end of the day there was a couple of really bright blue males in the bucket, when dropped in a tank they lost the blue and went clear in 15 minutes, just as a side not I never acclimatise shrimp just drop the in the tanks, I did not say that!!! 

 

Time to stop raving and write a article

 

Bob

[revolutionhope]

thanks mate!

maybe a dumb question on my part but ... I take it they dont specifically need ca and mg in the water?

if so would ro + a little coral to buffer pH be suitable to make up the water constitution alone?

another q that comes to mind - given I overfilter and will chuck a good amount of purigen in my canister - what kind of stocking density would be safe in your opinion?

my last query for now is about disease - you said mixing shrimps will kill them due to increased pollutants - so disease transfer isn't a worry and I can just use my pre-seeded canister but with all fresh water in the tank?

thanks once again I sincerely hope others as well as myself can get on top of how to keep these critters :-)

p.s.how many generations have you managed now?

thanks again for taking the time and im sure many are looking forward to seeing your article.

love n peace

will

[kizshrimp]

Disease transfer could still be a problem, it's all speculation. I put 2 leaves in their tank that came from other shrimp tanks and will repeat that before moving some into a recirculating system with other shrimp. Hopefully we can have them  live with other species soon enough. 

They will need some Ca and Mg in the water but probably get most of it from diet. I would observe the same parameter ratios that are recommended for exotic Caridina like TBs. Just keep to the low end, always below 100 TDS. 

 

Have to say thanks to Bob for making these available to us, I have wanted to keep zebras for many years and now finally have some here. They're more beautiful than I ever imagined. 

[northboy]

Thanks for that Kiz

 

My bad I did not mention that one, Disease transfer, its in the too hard basket, one for Ben as he has axcess to the equipment. How ever if it turns out to be a issue slow exposure is the way to go, that builds strength.

 

Will,  I would use Ro and add normal tap water to get to where you want, I use Coral as its the slackos way out= easy. CA and MG never measured it, but they are short run creeks for the most part so not much mineralisation happens.

 

I still only have to second gen through my own slackness and getting rid of to many to keep them going.

 

Keep an eye out for Bens posts to come from his trip up, we found some good stuff, even if we did not travel far this time, one is  snails with yellow spotted feet, they as good as some of the OS ones.

 

Bob

Edited May 19, 2015 by northboy

[revolutionhope]

im in adelaide im not suee if tap is a good choice. I have access to some nice spring water from a friends place which is percolated thru limestone and gave me great success with rcs in a heavily heavily planted tank.. maybe I could mix a little of that in to bring tds up to 20ish say?

with disease question - should I cycle a tank from fresh to avoid contamination? or do u guys think it would it be ok to drain an existing canister and then refill it immediately with fresh water before the bacteria dry up and die?

also what about transferring plants and mosses - wont they bring along disease? Should they be dipped in something to kill the organisms attached and allow biofilm to start totally from scratch in the zebra tank and hope they are ok with some algae wafers/powder and some ial and mulberry leaves?

sorry for 20 questions !!

[fishmosy]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything that Bob has said in this post. My own previously failed attempts to keep zebras was my own fault - I let the TDS get too high from lack of water changes. However when I had kept the TDS low, they bred for me fairly easily and I would say I had no more difficulty in breeding them than CRS. I wont be making the same mistake with the latest lot of shrimp I brought home from Cairns.

[revolutionhope]

ben do you think you could sharw your opinion on pathogens and what would r u gonna do re new tank set up - specifically water buffering/constitution and how r u pre-seeding your filter?

[fishmosy]

im in adelaide im not suee if tap is a good choice. I have access to some nice spring water from a friends place which is percolated thru limestone and gave me great success with rcs in a heavily heavily planted tank.. maybe I could mix a little of that in to bring tds up to 20ish say?

with disease question - should I cycle a tank from fresh to avoid contamination? or do u guys think it would it be ok to drain an existing canister and then refill it immediately with fresh water before the bacteria dry up and die?

also what about transferring plants and mosses - wont they bring along disease? Should they be dipped in something to kill the organisms attached and allow biofilm to start totally from scratch in the zebra tank and hope they are ok with some algae wafers/powder and some ial and mulberry leaves?

sorry for 20 questions !!

The zebs dont come from an area with limestone, so the limestone water may have other elements that the shrimp dont like. You could try it, but I'm going down the route of using benibachi remineralising salts to boost TDS up. Squiggle had some success using this method. I'll be trying some other alternatives as well, but haven't fully made up my mind so I wont post anything here yet.

The disease question: this is a complicated question that will depend on many factors. Bob and I spoke about this at some length while I was up at Cairns. Bob pointed out diseases require hosts to survive, no host = no disease. So if the canister is moved from your other shrimp tank, and left to run on your zeb tank for a couple of weeks to cycle the tank BEFORE the zebs are added, its highly unlikely that any disease causing organisms (specifically bacteria, fungi and protozoans) will be alive. No host = no disease.

However if the canister is transfered when the zebs are added, then there may be disease causing organisms present in the water in the canister.

I dont think zebs are prone to disease any more or less than other shrimp. It all depends on whether or not they are stressed. If you read through my zeb tank thread, I regularly exposed the shrimp to small amounts of water from a CRS without any problems.

We need to realise that many diseases are actually oppurrtunistic infections by organisms that are normally harmless or even beneficial. For example, E. coli is normally found in the digestive systems of humans, where it is beneficial. However if they get into (for example) your ears or nose in an open wound, they can reproduce prolifically and without antibiotics, the toxins they produce would eventually kill you. Same with shrimp. If their immunity is low, they can get attacked by bacteria, fungi and other organisms which might normally be harmless. The point is shrimp will be far less vulnerable to disease if they are healthy and not stressed. What is the number one cause of stress for zebs? Incorrect water conditions.

That all said, we mustn't forget that shrimp may also carry shrimp specific diseases such as viruses. These can last outside of hosts, sometimes for millenia. For example, scientists recently reanimated a virus found frozen in Siberia that had been in the ice for tens of thousands of years! However viruses are vulnerable to breakdown by UV, with a UV filter being the only option I see as a viable option. Even full sunlight hitting on the tank is not really going to provide enough UV. So as BOb suggests, keep your zebs seperate (at least for the time being) from other shrimp (which will also prevent hybridisation - another issue Australian shrimp keepers will need to come to consensus on at some point, but a subject best left until then).

Edited May 19, 2015 by fishmosy

[northboy]

I think the best way is to keep them on there own and move extras around when you breed them and that will expose them to new.

 

Remember that Diseases for the most part wont last in a tank with out a host so if no shrimp in this case have been in contact with any thing for more that 10 days the baddies wont hang on, all Diseases need a host to keep going, fish diseases need fish and shrimp diseases need shrimp to keep going, rare cases some go dormant and wait for a host but most of them don't worry us. 

 

I never cycle a tank, I load it lightly to start with, don't feed every day and water change lots, its entirely up to what one thinks works for them. The one I can not get my head around is the cycling a tank with out any animals in it??? you need something pooping in there to start it and using ammonia to start it?? it aint natural and that is entirely my oppion, some times I will use dirty filter material to start a new tank.

 

If your canister has been in a tank with out fish or shrimp the bacteria will be dead and dormant, but they start really quick when there some thing to feed on, so may be a light clean and away you go.

 

Every thing is different for every one for a lot of factors, where you live governs you water quality, how you keep them and maintain them governs you water quality massively and what you keep together and numbers you keep, it all leads to stressed or not stressed and stressed animals get sick easier than non stressed.

 

Raving again sorry

 

Bob

Edited May 19, 2015 by northboy

[kizshrimp]

I can't get my head around cycling without livestock either. These commercial media like ADA etc provide some ammonia release to feed it but the idea that an aquarist, likely a newbie will add and maintain a realistic and stable ammonia level to cycle a new tank is absurd. How many highly experienced aquarists out there can tell me right now how much ammonia their fully stocked and cycled system consumes daily? The best a fishless cycle can really hope to achieve is some proliferation of nitrifiers before the main livestock are added. Certainly not a stable nitrogen-cycled system. 

 

There are some diseases that can persist for ages without a host. Mosy has pointed out viruses but there are more. Sorry to make a statement like that without citing any examples - you'll have to either trust me or look it up for yourself. As Bob said we don't normally have big troubles anyway. 

 

Will, I think Bob hit it above. Keep them alone and mix spares when you have them. You will have to do what you feel is best with the filter, I'm using media from a fish system and that has been ok so far. Like I said above we have a lot of speculation to work with here. 

[fishmosy]

I will stick up for fishless cycling here as I believe it is a ethical way to ready a tank for shrimp or fish without intentionally exposing shrimp or fish to high levels of ammonia, which as we all know is bad for them.

Fishless cycling can work to establish the bacterial colonies that consume ammonia and nitrite. However there must be a source of ammonia - fishfood, rotting meat, plain old ammonia itself. The point is to establish the bacterial colonies using your ammonia source, then add your livestock so that they provide the ammonia (and of course stop adding the original source of ammonia). The number of bacteria will either shrink or grow to account for the differences in the amount of ammonia you fed the tank verses how much the fish produce. Bacteria reproduce extremely quickly, minutes to hours. And remember that their number grows exponentially - 1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 4, 4 becomes 8, 8 becomes 16, 16 becomes 32, 32 becomes 64. And so on.

Just to reiterate - fishless cycling is designed to ensure that the bacteria are established in the tank. It is not designed to perfectly match the number of bacteria to the amount of ammonia that will be produced by the fish that will be added. As explained above, the bacteria will quickly adjust their numbers to account for any differences in the amount of ammonia (and nitrite).

The amount of bacteria in a tank never remains constant. It fluctuates to account for the amount of food (ammonia, or nitrite) is available. More fish = more ammonia = more bacteria. And vice versa of course! If you feed the tank, there will be a increase in the number of bacteria as they consume the ammonia produced via the feeding fish, then over the next few hours their numbers may decline as the amount of ammonia in the tank decreases.

That said, I believe the best method is to add established media from another tank to introduce the bacteria into a new tank, and as I mentioned above, they can rapidly reproduce to use up all the available ammonia (and nitrite) so fish or shrimp are never exposed to high levels of ammonia. If you cant do this, fishless cycling or other methods that prevent the exposure of organisms to high ammonia levels are in my opinion the most ethical ways to cycle a new tank.

[revolutionhope]

from memory I think this article (which is by no means a scientific journal so not 100% certain for sure) states that the autobots can double their numbers in 24hours

http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/71-autotrophic-bacteria-manifesto.html

[northboy]

FIGHT I hate peace LOL

 

Its all about what works for you and the really hard thing is what works for me may not work for you, one MUST be adjustable to some extent and on the ball.

 

My pet hate is selling a breeding pair of any thing, yep might have breed there butts off for you and may never breed for me because of so many variables, water, aspect as in orientation to sun light, food, water changes and so many more, yea I know off topic but its the point I am trying to make, works for me and may not for you or works for you and may not for me = there really is no hard and fast rules, just common sense.

 

My favourite about water changes is, if you don't want to be regular with them, go and lock your self in the LOO and turn the water off, now have 3 meals a day in there, not a nice place at all after the first day and we do that to out aquatic critters, who really knows what is left at the end of the nitrification cycle, I am sure there is thing we can not test for at the end, my case for water changes.

 

I know I know off topic, ranting again

 

Bob

[kizshrimp]

Makin' movies, makin songs and fighting round the world. Yeah good call Bob... You could have another book just of aquarium rants. It's like growing plants, everyone's microclimate and method are different. "What potting mix should I use?"

You're right there's plenty "left over" to demand water changes. All kinds of mineral cycles are going on as well as N, plus the livestock are all producing hormones, plant growth inhibitors and other crap that we certainly can't test for. People talk about the chemical warfare in their reef tanks but no one seems to consider it's all happening in freshwater too, albeit probably at a reduced level. 

 

I appreciate what you're saying Fishmosy and it's great to see ethics enter the arena. I actually wasn't suggesting that fishless cycling shouldn't be attempted, just that it doesn't end with a fully cycled tank, and many keepers seem to think it will. We don't consider P-cycling or anything else than N in freshwater aquatics but as suggested above it's going on. We can see it, the succession from brown diatoms to green algaes, the way a system just works better after 12 months compared to 12 weeks. We just aren't thinking about why, for the most part.  

At my place, livestock don't need to be exposed to high ammonia or nitrite levels to cycle a tank; I have media to borrow from other systems and don't feel compelled to overfeed. I'm sure it's the same at Bobs and probably yours too. I certainly agree that borrowing media is better than commercial cycling agents. We will use what we can and sometimes that means people buy cycle or similar. It probably gets them through. 

 

Of course bacteria levels don't stay constant but again without a reference I'm going to suggest that our aerobic nitrifiers don't multiply as fast as many other bacteria. A fluidised media system like sand provides them the best situation to rapidly expand and is my 1st choice of biofiltration. 

 

Geez that seems all over the place. I hope there's some sense in it. I've been too busy thinking about Autobots, thanks Will  :)