Shrimp cross breeding

[northboy]

Hi All

I am not an expert, but I will shed a little light on the subject for all. I will also try to down load some of the line drawings I have.

Shrimp cross breeding between different species is just about impossible, Why? because of the males reproduction organs, when you see some photos taken under a microscope you can see the astounding differences. Some have clubs, some have different hairs and hooks and some have spikes to name just a few. Then there is the front sets of feet they grip the female with, they are very different to.

It is a question I get asked a lot about natives and it is a very good question. Shrimp like Rileys, cherries, yellow cherries, chocs and the rest are all the same shrimp, just man made variations on one and another so they can all breed with each other. Cherry and Crystals No, I have not seen there reproduction organs under a scope, But I imagine they are way different. Also there is the issue of compatible sperm to.

Natives No, not ever Zebras and false Zebras (confusa) as they are vastly different shrimp.

How ever in saying al of that, it would be good if they did as the variations would be fantastic. Also saying all that it is not beyond the realms of possibility, as Mother nature finds a way it just not easily done

Bob

[honcho]

oooh.. thats really intersting stuff..

i had no idea about the different reproductive organs..

pics would be awsome too. to help educate us even more..

cheers

[crystal green]

Yes ,very interesting, good to know, about our hobby. thank You.

[zacsbee89]

i knew that some variants could interbreed due to both being cherrys for eg. But didn't know that the impossibility was due to totally different reproductive organs until bob cleared it up for me about 2hrs ago :-P you don't happen to have pics do you bob?

[northboy]

I have some line drawings some where, when I find them I will put it up.

There is variations in Australian species to, Like the DAS and C. longirostris, they should be able to breed together because they are so much alike. They were the same species untill the DNA was done on them, I have not tried them together as yet.

Bob

[fishmosy]

You do realise you guys are asking to see pictures of penises? ;)

Thats interesting Bob, didn't know that about shrimp.

Fertilisation is actually a hard thing to achieve. Even within the same species, eggs and sperm from different individuals have slightly different proteins that will or wont bind together, which can hinder or help fertilisation. Think of them like locks and keys, certain proteins only go with other certain proteins.

These proteins act as another mechanism to prevent hybridisation. Even at the level of DNA, pieces of DNA from different species often wont bind together to form chromosomes, which also prevents a fertile embryo forming even if sperm make it into the egg. Even then, if a fertile embryo does occur the resulting individual is often sterile (e.g. Horse x donkey).

In short, there are lots of mechanisms that prevent hybridisation, however holding lots of shrimp in confines like aquariums increases the chances of it occurring. Should it occur, should the shrimp hobby welcome it? Hybridisation hasn't necessarily helped for fish. Food for thought.....

[BlueBolts]

Thanks fishmosy...that's very well written and informative.

[Dean]

great information given guys..

would like to see the pics of all of this aswell :)

[BlueBolts]

Based on Gbang's previous post on another thread, as soon as the pics of penises appear, he'll be all over this thread. LOL. Sorry for the cheap shot Gbang.

But seriously, it'll be good to see and appreciate the difference/difficulty.

[northboy]

You sick bunch LOL.

Thanks Ben you put into words what I could not work out how to. TA heaps.

Hybridisation is frowned upon, my personal view is, I am good with it so long as the original strains are maintained in the Hobby, the main reason is the lack of ability to import new blood line. In reality though, the shrimp we have are so far from the wild type now they are unrecognizable.

Some one should put in the Library some photos of the wild Cherry and Crystal shrimo for new people to see, so they have an idea of what they have and that way might be encouraged to work on our native shrimp, a much underrated resource. Yes some are hard for most to get but not impossible.

Bob

[fishmosy]

As I see it, there are two issues surrounding hybridisation.

The first is the idea of keeping species pure for conservation. In our case, shrimp we have today are far from the original variants that were originally kept, not to mention the line breeding, in-breeding ect. that further changed the genome (genetic structure) of the shrimp we keep today. Not to mention many shrimp in Aus came from a few individuals that came into the country, so only have a limited genetic diversity anyway. Either way, should anything happen to wild shrimp stocks that would require the use of aquarium kept individuals to be returned to the wild, the individuals we have in aquaria are far too different from wild ones that it would just pollute what little wild stock remained. As far as I am aware the collecting sites for original shrimp strains were within protected areas, kind of like our national parks, or were in very remote places that are protected by that remoteness. In either case there is no reason to prevent hybridisation based on conservation.

However keeping shrimp pure may still be a valuable tool for conservation so shouldn't be written off completely. I have heard that shrimp collectors poisoned sites once competitors found their secret spots to prevent the competitors accessing those shrimp. However I doubt the collectors kept those strains pure by breeding only shrimp from one collection site/stream.

In a country with rainfall as variable as ours, there may be the need to keep shrimp in captivity if their river/waterhole/spring-fed puddle dries out. Look at the red-finned blue-eye, a species of fish found only in a few spring-fed puddles in QLD. I see no reason why this couldn't occur for shrimp.

The problem with keeping shrimp pure for conservation is then, where do you set the level of what is hybridisation? Whilst not technically hybridisation, is crossing the same species from different rivers OK as they never would naturally breed in the wild? It is not OK in my opinion if your aim is conservation. Whilst technically the same species, different populations e.g. in different rivers, will have slightly different genetics. Once mixed, you can't unmix it.

What about if we don't realise that one species is actually two? Australia's native shrimp aren't that well described, should we be mixing shrimp from different areas in case we are accidentally creating hybrids?

The second argument is that we should keep lines pure so that when you buy a CRS you are actually getting a CRS, not a CRS x RCS with bee heritage. The reason for this argument is because people want to have adults throw babies that look like the adults. How pissed would you be if you paid good money for pure CRS and their offspring were a mix of RCS and CRS? Just look at african cichlids if you want an example. Lots of guys now refuse to keep them unless they are wild caught or imported because the fish buzzing around now don't look how they did a few decades ago when first imported. How hard is it to find a decent electric yellow nowdays? Pretty bloody difficult. Admittedly hybridisation isn't completely to blame but it does muddy the water.

In our case we need to take a long term view of this, not a short term economic view. Yes there would be lots of money in hybrid shrimp given their potential. However lets take a long term view. Say hybrid shrimp do occur, whilst a handful of breeders can maintain their lines separate and keep the hybrids apart, once these hit the open market they will be crossed with pure shrimp by accident or design until in 20 years time almost every shrimp in the hobby from the original two species has some hybrid DNA. By taking this view I am very hesitant to support hybridisation of shrimp. I would hate it if the next few generations of shrimp keepers end up with crappy hybrids instead of the gorgeous shrimp we have today.

I guess the final nail in the coffin for hybridisation for me is seeing the range of shrimp coming from people like Dean. Look at the green varieties he has been showing us lately. That potential is there (and more) by careful breeding without hybridisation. So why muddy the water with hybrids?

As a final thought, just remember not every result of a hybridisation is the combination of the best characteristics from the parents, more often you simply get the worst.

[Gbang]

Bahahahaha bb where did that come from!!??!! Lets not get off topic here ;) what's are everyone's thoughts on tiger bees?

[jacet]

Fishmosy... Love how you put everything i really enjoy what you write and how you write it too... very well done... Same as Northboy always gives lots of info in easy to read terms... Well done guys I really enjoy reading your stuff...