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Zoidburg

Cherry Shrimp Tank Issues

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Zoidburg

@Kaylenna So as to not derail the other thread.

5 hours ago, Kaylenna said:

What kind of problems?  If you've mentioned it somewhere and I missed it, forgot, etc, sorry!

 

I can't seem to figure out what the issue is. I have both adults and juvenile shrimp dying in a 20 gallon tank. It has inert substrate, Aqua Clear 30 filter with Pre-Filter Sponge, sponge filter, and a 75w Eheim heater. It has a couple of pieces of driftwood, some inert rocks (used in previous tanks), and several plants. (2 types crypts, 2 types java fern, 2 types of moss, hornwort, moss balls and anubias plant/rhizomes that broke off of a larger plant) They also get mulberry and IAL. There are mineral balls in there, and only because I got them for free. There has been a cuttlebone in the tank prior to the remineralizer.

Tap water is 3-4 GH/KH, TDS around 50-ish and a pH around 7.4. This is what they were originally living in, and there were deaths. Only, instead of simply dying, they "disappeared". (they were also in a tank of kuhli loaches and a BN pleco) After doing research into the cause and learning about the water parameters, a separate tank was set up for them where-in they started to breed like mad.

These were the parameters prior to getting a remineralizer.

pH 7.6
High pH 7.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5
KH 3
GH 3
TDS 87

 

After remineralizing, these were the results I got.

pH 7.6
High pH 7.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate <5
KH 5
GH 5
TDS 154

 

Still had deaths, despite changing the parameters for the better. The larger, 30g tank had some deaths, but then it seemed to stabilize itself. These were the parameters in that tank.

pH 7.6
High pH 7.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate <5
KH 2
GH 5
TDS 324

 

So I chose to increase the parameters in the 20g to see if that may help. They currently sit at...

pH 7.6
High pH 7.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
KH 4.5/5
GH 8
TDS 360

 

Temperature is sitting at 73° F. I've tried both higher as well as lower temps.

 

Most of the shrimp came from a local breeder who uses the *SAME* tap water as I do. However, her parameters in her tank are different.

pH 7.3
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 30
KH 5
GH 6
TDS ~200?

(I don't recall the TDS for certain)

 

No CO2, hardly any ferts (haven't dosed in a long time, actually - but it's Seachem Flourish & Trace). Tank is 7 months old. It has an Aqueon Deluxe Food Hood for lighting.

I've tried feeding every day (for babies) or only sparsely in a week. Food wise, I have food from Mosura, Lowkeys, Borneowild, Fluval (hardly feed that one). Occasionally even spinach, peas or the occasional piece of lettuce. (few times a month, at most)

 

I've done remineralized tap water treated with Prime or Aqua Plus, and even remineralized RO water.

 

Deaths are *usually* not frequent, however at least the majority of the adults are now gone and breeding is kind of at a standstill. It still occurs, as I do have shrimp of various ages in the tank, but even when I had more adults, the breeding had just tapered off. Last week, I found a juvenile that had died.

 

Many people talk about starting off with about 10 shrimp and in a few months time having hundreds. I on the other hand? I can't even reach 100 shrimp within a 6 month span... and I started off with maybe 20-30 low grade cherry shrimp.

 

The 30g tank has fewer cherries, and they aren't breeding like mad, but they seem to be thriving better. Similar setup, although that tank has anubias, hornwort and a moss ball as plants. Hornwort is growing like mad! The anubias is doing better in that tank than it was in the previous tank. There are also 4 kuhli loaches in that tank.

 

I do more water top offs than water changes, and when doing water changes, I use an airline hose to add the water back into the tank.

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Kaylenna

A few things I noticed/thought I should mention, in no particular order or level of importance (keep in mind I didn't get nearly enough sleep and haven't really for the last 16 months, so I'm bound to be off kilter, but I figured I should put them up since I did ASK what was wrong!) 

Red Cherries are typically very flexible (as shrimps go) and have a decently wide range that they can do well with.  But it's likely better to aim for the middle of a range if you're going to fiddle with things.  Your 300+ TDS, while quite surviveable, seems on the high end of things (most people aim for 200ish), especially since your tap water is low and you have to use a remineralizer - I would use a tad less, save some money.

As has been mentioned by many people/sources, it's probably at least as important to maintain fairly constant parameters as to aim for "ideal" numbers.

Do you actually see dead shrimp?  In a decently planted/decorated tank, sometimes "disappear" could just mean they're hiding better than you think.  I had a few distinctive (easy to recognize) shrimp that just spent a LOT of time out of sight - sometimes it'll be 2 weeks before I spot them again.  The berried females are especially prone to hiding.  Hiding may account for a few of your missing shrimp.

Do you ever see any odd things on or about your dead shrimp?  (possible indicators for cause of death)

How do you keep the water temp at 73 in Reno??  (assuming Nevada)  I'd have though it'd be a lot warmer than that for at least 4 months of the year.  Sorry, not quite shrimp related... just a random thought.  Although... the outside weather/season could affect your shrimps' breeding.  I've had long-time shrimp keepers tell me their shrimp won't breed for them during _X_ season (the low seasons varies).

 

Things that could affect breeding:

I used to be lazy about water changes, but now I think they are great!!  You don't need to do huge ones - for the sake of convenience (size of my aquarium dedicated bucket), I usually do about 15-20% once a week.  BUT.  I purposely use cold water for my change and uhh... tend to dump it in relatively quickly - a minute or 2 for the small tanks.  I AIM to drop the water temp by about 2 degrees.  This tends to result in a bunch of newly berried females the next day.  (Possibly the drop in temp --> new rains -->fresh food supply -->time to breed  idea). 

The other thing that may help speed up your breeding slightly is to increase your tanks' temperature slightly 75-6 ish (higher temps = faster life cycle; this won't do much for deaths though). 

More plants are always good for breeding too - more surface area, more biofilm for the babies to eat - especially if you have places that only the smaller ones fit.  I have a bit of moss wall on the back of all of my shrimp tanks.  I usually stuff a couple of the IAL leaves or other dried leaves back there with most of it sticking out - the mesh helps hold them in place so they're not too cluttery, but it also creates baby-only zones on the leaves.  And when I say a couple, I mean my 10 gallon usually has +3 leaves, added 1 per week or so - that way they have a chance to soften and grow stuff before the older ones are all gone.  If you're REALLY trying to breed more and have the time/equipment, you can try setting up a maternity/nursery tank.  Mine are just external breeder boxes attached to the main tank, so no extra tanks to handle (other than the occasional thorough clean they get when between batches).  I find that my baby survival rate is anywhere from 50% to +300% higher in breeding boxes.  Perhaps because they never have to compete with adults for food.  My most recent experience with this - I'd put my berried TB females in their own box, at first because I wanted to keep track of the babies' growth.  But they've been spitting out about 3x the number of month old juveniles per female than the supposedly more prolific CRS.  It can't be water parameters etc... they all share the same water.  So now I think I'm doomed to have breeding boxes hanging off of various tanks ?.

You may have gotten a batch of inbred shrimp that carried some less than ideal genes and they're slowly showing themselves in a constant low stream of deaths.  Because it's next to impossible to tell if that is or will be an issue (unless you happen to have a spare equipped Biology lab and some minions to do the work for you), I generally try to get livestock (be it fish, shrimp, insects, whatever) from multiple sources.  I'd rather go to the trouble of driving to 3-4 locations than wonder if they're struggling with lethal recessives in there.

Fiddling with the water parameters will often stall their breeding, so you may have to give them time to get back into the swing of things. 

 

Hopefully something in there gives you some ideas that help.  And maybe someone with more experience/more awake will chime in!

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ineke

good write up Kaylena but people should be aware if you have berried girls in your tank and you put in slightly colder water as suggested- which does work - the berried girls may moult and leave their eggs in the moult. just keep that in mind so you don't lose babies.

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Zoidburg

Red Cherries are typically very flexible (as shrimps go) and have a decently wide range that they can do well with.  But it's likely better to aim for the middle of a range if you're going to fiddle with things.  Your 300+ TDS, while quite surviveable, seems on the high end of things (most people aim for 200ish), especially since your tap water is low and you have to use a remineralizer - I would use a tad less, save some money.

I have a 500 gram container of remineralizer, and a little goes a long way. I'm saving money by using this stuff (Remineraliz-P by Brightwell Aquatics), but wish I got a cleaner product.

I'm well aware that Neos are pretty flexible, but despite the different GH/TDS, I still seem to have issues. I didn't mean for the TDS to get quite *that* high, in fact, the water I have for water changes is at 280 TDS.

Also, the shrimp in the 30g seem to be doing fine in 300+ TDS. That TDS was supposed to be around 200, but miscalculated, so I've been keeping it at 300+ instead, since the shrimp seem to be doing fine it.

 

As has been mentioned by many people/sources, it's probably at least as important to maintain fairly constant parameters as to aim for "ideal" numbers.

This tank has been set up for about 6-7 months now, so it's changes I've made over months, not days, or weeks. I'll do a change, then try that out for weeks before trying to change something else. I never pour water straight back in.

 

Do you actually see dead shrimp?  In a decently planted/decorated tank, sometimes "disappear" could just mean they're hiding better than you think.

In the 20g, yes. The shrimp were first introduced into a 90+ gallon tank that was lightly planted (all anubias of various sizes/lengths). Rarely ever saw a dead shrimp, but it was still quite apparent that they were dying. Rarely *ever* saw baby shrimp despite having 10+ berried females at one time, and none ever made it to adult-hood. Filter inlets covered with pantyhose. This is part of the reason why I set up a 20g tank.

 

Do you ever see any odd things on or about your dead shrimp?

Unfortunately, no. I the beginning, when the GH was too low, it was death due to molting issues. Now? I can't see any signs of a bacterial infection, parasite, or other issue. They're just dead.

 

How do you keep the water temp at 73 in Reno??  (assuming Nevada)  I'd have though it'd be a lot warmer than that for at least 4 months of the year.  Sorry, not quite shrimp related... just a random thought.  Although... the outside weather/season could affect your shrimps' breeding.  I've had long-time shrimp keepers tell me their shrimp won't breed for them during _X_ season (the low seasons varies).

I've heard that, too. Have only kept shrimp since December of 2015. Shrimp were added to the 20g in April. It was in May when the rest of the inhabitants from the 90g were transferred to the 30g.

The temps in the 90g were actually set at 80° F or maybe it was 82?

Right now, the 20g sits at 75° F (with heater) where-as the 30g is sitting at 74.8° F (without heater...) It is the "fall" season now (if you can consider it fall... feels like we have two seasons. Winter and Summer. Even then, the whether isn't always sure what time of year it is...). It is about 9:30pm.

 

I used to be lazy about water changes, but now I think they are great!!  You don't need to do huge ones - for the sake of convenience (size of my aquarium dedicated bucket), I usually do about 15-20% once a week.  BUT.  I purposely use cold water for my change and uhh... tend to dump it in relatively quickly - a minute or 2 for the small tanks.  I AIM to drop the water temp by about 2 degrees.  This tends to result in a bunch of newly berried females the next day.  (Possibly the drop in temp --> new rains -->fresh food supply -->time to breed  idea). 

I usually have water sitting in buckets prior to doing water changes, and they get to room temp... so not quite as easy to do... lol

I have been considering this, though! Somehow... (probably using frozen water bottles to cool the water)

 

The other thing that may help speed up your breeding slightly is to increase your tanks' temperature slightly 75-6 ish (higher temps = faster life cycle; this won't do much for deaths though). 

The shrimp used to be in water around 80°, but ended up lowering it since many people say that they live longer in cooler temperatures, plus there is less chance of bacterial infections. I feel like I may be having more deaths due to that, so have tried raising the temp back up, but not quite to that warm.

 

If you're REALLY trying to breed more and have the time/equipment, you can try setting up a maternity/nursery tank.

That's what the 20g was meant to be... a breeding/baby tank for the community tank. That, and for breeding for color. Not working out as well as I had hoped. I was considering using breeding boxes for selective breeding for coloration. Right now, the only breeding boxes I have are two "nets" and one plastic which goes on the inside of the tanks. Using the net breeder before, I can neither keep shrimp in it, nor can I keep them out. They *will* crawl above the water line to get in/out of it.

  

You may have gotten a batch of inbred shrimp that carried some less than ideal genes and they're slowly showing themselves in a constant low stream of deaths.  Because it's next to impossible to tell if that is or will be an issue (unless you happen to have a spare equipped Biology lab and some minions to do the work for you), I generally try to get livestock (be it fish, shrimp, insects, whatever) from multiple sources.  I'd rather go to the trouble of driving to 3-4 locations than wonder if they're struggling with lethal recessives in there.

The 'main stock' came from a breeder who doesn't add new stock to her tanks. (she "sells" them for $1 each, but she usually just grabs a bunch out of the tank, dumps them in a bag and gives them to me for less than $1 each) I have no doubt that they are heavily inbred. Having said that, when I stocked the 20g with shrimp, I used *mostly* females from this breeder, then chose nicely colored males from 2 different pet stores (well, same company, different locations) to help increase genetics. (for some reason, all the males were better coloration than the females...)

There are 4 stores in the area that sell cherry shrimp, but I've only ever purchased from 3 of them. The fourth one, the only time I saw that they had cherry shrimp, they didn't appear that great. I mainly stick to two stores though, since they appear to have the best colored and healthiest stock available.

I think I only have one of the pet store shrimp left... maybe two, but unlikely more than 3.

 

Par of the issue could be because I'm buying mainly adults and not juveniles. There is no one locally who breeds for color (actually, I only know of the one breeder...), so I would have to have shrimp shipped in, and so far, I've been reluctant to mail order shrimp. I prefer to choose shrimp by seeing them first...

Using crummy camera phone....

 

20 gallon

2ufxcif.jpg

 

 

30 Gallon (top left - 2 one gallon zip lock bags filled approximately half way with hornwort. already gave a third bag away - may put some/rest in a 50 gallon pond, if I ever get it set up before winter)

10gahc1.jpg 

 

PS, I've never had a female molt with eggs, but I have had berried females that died, or a few females drop their eggs.

 

I made, and used, a DIY egg tumbler. I have an iBron shrimp brooder now, but haven't had a chance to use it since purchasing it.

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jayc
39 minutes ago, Zoidburg said:

This tank has been set up for about 6-7 months now

You sir, might need to look for this product... Mineral powder.

http://www.thetechden.com.au/Benibachi_Mineral_Powder_120g_p/mp120.htm

Not sure who sells that in the States.

 

But a tank 6 months old would have exhausted it's mineral content that remineralisers for RO water alone will not replenish, unless you use my DIY remin recipe in the Water Parameters section. 

 

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Kaylenna
1 hour ago, ineke said:

good write up Kaylena but people should be aware if you have berried girls in your tank and you put in slightly colder water as suggested- which does work - the berried girls may moult and leave their eggs in the moult. just keep that in mind so you don't lose babies.

Yes... that's the tricky part!  That's one of the reasons it might be worth setting up a maternity tank if you're REALLY trying to drive the breeding.  And getting an egg tumbler/equivalent if you're determined to save every egg.  Thanks for adding that!!

18 minutes ago, jayc said:

You sir, might need to look for this product... Mineral powder.

http://www.thetechden.com.au/Benibachi_Mineral_Powder_120g_p/mp120.htm

Not sure who sells that in the States.

 

But a tank 6 months old would have exhausted it's mineral content that remineralisers for RO water alone will not replenish, unless you use my DIY remin recipe in the Water Parameters section. 

 

Ohoh... good to know. 

Amazon sells that exact powder, by the way.  $14 ... ha.  (sorry, I miss Amazon).

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Kaylenna
1 hour ago, Zoidburg said:

Par of the issue could be because I'm buying mainly adults and not juveniles. There is no one locally who breeds for color (actually, I only know of the one breeder...)

Err... I suppose some of the deaths could be natural old age too then. 

Have you checked for local groups of any sort?  There's also the umm... bug the pet store people - I've found that there's a fairly high chance they keep aquariums at home and may have/know other people who have shrimp.   And I agree... I prefer to be able to see what I buy before I buy it!  But it's not always an option if you want specific, relatively rare things.

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Zoidburg
32 minutes ago, jayc said:

You sir, might need to look for this product... Mineral powder.

http://www.thetechden.com.au/Benibachi_Mineral_Powder_120g_p/mp120.htm

Not sure who sells that in the States.

 

But a tank 6 months old would have exhausted it's mineral content that remineralisers for RO water alone will not replenish, unless you use my DIY remin recipe in the Water Parameters section. 

 

Miss. :)

And I'm not entirely sure how that Mineral Powder is any different than a remineralizer. If it helps any though, I do have Mosura Old Sea Mud Powder and Ebi-Ken Sosei that I use occasionally.

I also don't have any idea where to get the majority of those ingredients from the DIY recipe...

 

Also have Seachem Flourish and Trace, which are hardly used.

 

As it stands, right now, I can't afford to buy anything, but I hope things turn around soon. I would be quite interested in trying a different remineralizer.

 

5 minutes ago, Kaylenna said:

Err... I suppose some of the deaths could be natural old age too then. 

Have you checked for local groups of any sort?  There's also the umm... bug the pet store people - I've found that there's a fairly high chance they keep aquariums at home and may have/know other people who have shrimp.   And I agree... I prefer to be able to see what I buy before I buy it!  But it's not always an option if you want specific, relatively rare things.

 

Local groups are fish groups... none really keep, or breed, freshwater shrimp, except for the one local breeder.

The majority of the local pet store employees no longer have shrimp, or they don't really breed them. If they don't have shrimp, it's because they gave away/sold their tanks (no longer in the hobby), or they are just as stupid as I was a year ago, and can't get shrimp to survive. But, that's crystal shrimp in our soft water...

I did have someone contact me about shrimp once, and I replied to them, but they never answered me back. It appears that they are no longer in the same state?

 

I *know* there are others keeping shrimp, as someone buys up the cherry shrimp at the stores. Just, never find out who they are. I can certainly try again!

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Zoidburg

Just as an update, even with stable parameters, still having deaths. I feel like it might be bacterial in nature, but I don't see any cloudy bodies in living shrimp. Low grade cherries (about sakura?), but they still have a good amount of red coverage.


Did find one that was in the process of dying. I thought it was recently dead, but it was more like it was on the way out... found it lying upside down, and managed to get the shrimp right side up. It would move it's swimmerettes/pleopods and legs, but it didn't really move anywhere. I separated that shrimp from the others and put into a small container with water where it subsequently died. This was a juvie, too. Not quite adult. The previous dead shrimp I found was about the same age and still had good coloring when I found it.

 

I ended up doing a 70 or 80% water change with water around 200 TDS, so the TDS is 228. I mixed hard water (TDS ~460) with my soft water (TDS below 60) to get around the 200 TDS (2 parts hard water to 1 part soft water, approximately). Used Fluval Aqua+ Plus water conditioner, Mosura ShiZhen Power, Mosura Old Sea Mud Powder and Ebi-Kan Sosei in the new water. I over-did it on the water conditioners - intentionally. Didn't bother to match water temperatures, so the water that was added back in was colder than the tank temperature. Also added 3 branches of alder cones and may add an additional indian almond leaf to the tank (there is already one in there).

After the massive water change, I soaked some algae/spirulina pellets in garlic water, then rolled in Tonic Pro and fed them that. Have fed them more Tonic Pro (has Beta Glucan in it) since.


Seems like the tank is doomed anyway, so why not. I don't like doing such large water changes, but nothing else seems to be helping and I can't get any additional products right now. Also removed the sponge filter, in case the weighted base might be causing a problem, so now the tank only has a HOB for filtration. So far, no deaths, but there have been molts.

 

The only odd shrimp I've noticed so far has been a "pink" shrimp. She was pink prior to the massive water change, and pink afterwards. Today, I can't find a pink shrimp, so hoping she molted and is red now. Otherwise, she's hiding and I haven't seen her all day.

 

 

 

Just as a comparison, the other tank without issues is sitting at around 320-330 TDS. The 30 gallon with cherry shrimp and loaches. There are now more shrimp in the 30 gallon than the other tank, and this tank started out with less shrimp in it.

The 20 gallon (with problems) was supposed to be the breeding colony with good colors, so there were tons more shrimp in this tank in the beginning, especially with females getting berried and babies hatching. There were *TONS* of babies! I've removed one or two shrimp from this tank and put them in the 30 a while back. I know that one is still alive in the 30 gallon, because this one is the best colored shrimp in that tank. Most of the shrimp in this tank are babies and juvies, but there are still less in this tank now than the other and it's a shrimp only tank.

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Madmerv

Mmm cant help you but i'm feeling for you..

Hopefully things will turn around soon so you can get back to enjoying the shrimp and not worrying about how many you are going to find dead.

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Zoidburg

Plus side, did find the "pink" shrimp. Guess she was hiding after all. Now she's kind of gone "comatose" on a leaf... sitting there and literally not moving for hours. Checked to see if she's still alive. She got defensive, so yup.... still doesn't want to move.

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Kaylenna

I think the shrimp with bacterial infections usually start with the pink in their "heads" rather than all over their bodies.  Many of the ones that I found dead during my likely encounter with a bacterial infection didn't have pink in their bodies until several hours after they were fully dead.

You might want to try borrowing (or buying, if you've got the cash to spare) a filter with UV sterilization from someone.  I've heard some fish stores rent them too.  Or possibly dosing with an antibiotic.  There are posts in the health section that have numbers for dosing.

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Zoidburg

Don't, unfortunately, have any cash to spare. In a tight situation atm, made even more complicated due to auto issues.

I do have H2O2, but am skeptical about using it... so, as mentioned, tried the big water change, garlic water and Tonic Pro.

 

Don't know if there is anyone who has a UV sterilizer I can borrow, but I can try asking around.

 

The pink shrimp was pink all over... found this evening dead... along with a juvenile.... :(

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Zoidburg

Next morning, another dead juvenile...


On the plus side, two berried females.

 

Did another large water change (probably about 60%?) and tested the parameters again.

pH did go up to 7.8-8.0, but is back down to 7.4

KH is at 4

GH 6-7

TDS 149-150

 

Going to try and keep the parameters stable at this level now, but wondering if I should continue doing large water changes daily or a few times a week.

Using Fluval Aqua+ Plus, Mosura ShiZhen Power, Mosura Old Sea Mud Powder and Ebi-ken Sosei in the new water. It's a mix of hard tap and soft tap.

 


When the "pink" shrimp died, she turned a dark maroon color instead of pink, like the other shrimp have.

 

Attached image of the "pink" shrimp before she died.

IMG_7839.jpg

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Zoidburg

Still in the process of trying to figure this out... Shrimp are currently in a temp tank as I try to re-cycle the tank they were in.

 

Asked a group about their thoughts... here are the relevant ideas (some were not as they did not read the post correctly)

 

  1. "Old Tank" - silicone leaching chemicals from when it was a fish tank
    • Tank was purchased brand new, never had fish in it (not really relevant, but thought worth mentioning anyway)
  2. "New Tank" - not mature
    • Tank was started nearly 9 months ago now
  3. Substrate
    • Inert. Not Petco sand. Same sand is in another tank, out of the same bag. No problems in that tank
  4. Not "Cycled" 
    • Although Ammonia and Nitrites read '0', I'll give this as a possibility, that is, maybe there isn't enough bacteria in the tank for the shrimp to feed off of even though I used bacteria in a bottle to try and help jump-start the cycle - re-cycling tank using ammonia
  5. Driftwood
    • As far as I can tell, the same type of driftwood is being used in all the other tanks and this is "new" driftwood/not used in other tanks - boiled it just to be on the safe side
  6. Not high enough TDS
    • TDS not an issue... it's well within acceptable parameters, and yes, I did try higher TDS. Didn't change anything
  7. Rust
    • Possible, but I have not found any signs of rust in the tank - did remove weighted sponge filter just in case
  8. Heater
    • Didn't matter how warm or cool the tank was, still had deaths. Without heater, it would put the temp of the tank into the low 60's or even colder at night with a possible chance of "drastic" room temperature fluctuations - aka not exactly stable
  9. Lack of Minerals
    • Not an iodine or mineral issue. Other tanks get same water, regardless of what I'm using. Only problems in one tank
  10. Too frequent and large water changes
    • Water changes done infrequently (as in maybe 2 times a month? max 3 times?), and it's had a max of 4 large water changes within nearly 9 months now - two of which were basically "back to back"
  11. Use straight tap
    • Since my tap water is too soft, they die... 3-4 GH and KH with ~50 TDS... baby shrimp just died shortly after being hatched and only had 3 make it to maybe a few weeks old before they, too, died. That's 3 out of over 10 berried females at any given time - and of course, the adults died due to lack of minerals, failed molts...
  12. Use Remineralized RO
    • Some were adamant it's a tap water issue... and I'm adding too much "junk" to the water... I did remineralized RO water for 4-5 months and they still died! Adults and juvies! I asked if 4 months of remineralized RO water was not considered stable? No one answered...
  13. Instability
    • Some said I was changing too much too quickly... going back to RO, no one could answer about stability. It's not like I was trying one thing, then changing things a couple of days later! Tank has been set up for several months, so it would be several weeks if I decided to try something else again
  14. Copper
    • Going back to some other comments.... if it was copper (i.e. copper in tap), wouldn't the other tanks, all with shrimp, be suffering, too? But no, it's just one tank. Got the water tested anyway and nothing showed up. No surprise...
  15. Use Activated Carbon/Purigen
    • Used both. Still had deaths.

 

What I did do in the mean time.... I set up a temp tank using mixed tap water (hard tap has 19 GH and 10 KH with a TDS of 475, soft tap is 3-4 GH and KH with a TDS of ~50) and mixed until about 200 TDS. Water was treated with Fluval Aqua+ Plus, Mosura ShiZhen Power, Mosura Old Sea Mud Powder and Ebi-ken Sosei. Added in driftwood, indian almond leaves and alder cones, all of which were boiled prior to going into the temp tank. Added in a sponge filter out of another tank.


Water is "tea colored" due to the tannins and Sosei.


Shrimp have been in the temp tank for nearly 3 weeks now and have had ZERO deaths. (I didn't even acclimate them! although TDS was pretty close to same between the tanks) Prior to moving them, I was having upwards of 1-3 deaths per week. I didn't use RO and I didn't use a remineralizer. Proves that it is at least not a tap water issue, as I didn't think it was. Granted, the SO still thinks it's a tap water issue because he kept fish before (and has kuhli loaches right now) and his fish died on him when he kept them in straight tap... not realizing the species he was keeping prefers somewhat harder water than what comes out of our tap... and he's the fish guru in the relationship....

 

That aside, there have been several molts and young females getting berried. Even saw a newly hatched shrimp today! Downside, a couple of females have also dropped their eggs, but this isn't something I'm overly concerned about, all things considering...

 

 

The tank has gone through the Ammonia cycle, so now I'm just waiting on the Nitrite cycle. The blue Nitrite drops *quickly* turned purple after adding them to the test tube and easily looks like they are possibly higher than 2 or 5 ppm. I hope it's not too much longer before I can add the shrimp back in!

 

I already know I need to do a large water change to remove the Nitrates once it's done cycling, and since the water that's in the tank right now is soft tap water, I will need to "remineralize" it, too, which I plan on doing with the hard tap water.

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jayc
On 30/10/2016 at 8:57 AM, Zoidburg said:

Used Fluval Aqua+ Plus water conditioner, Mosura ShiZhen Power

Sorry to hear you are still having a lot of issues with your shrimp.

Do you use these two products at each water change?

They both seem to do the same thing - treat tap water. Kinda overkill don't you think? And are you using the right amount for your tank size?

I don't know if that is a cause or not, but I know that too much dechlorinator can reduce oxygen levels in a tank.

How's your surface water agitation in the tank? None, little, a lot?

 

I wonder if  Sochting Oxydator would help your tank. I'd give it a go. It won't be detrimental even if it doesn't cure the problems. The extra oxygen will give the shrimps a boost.

 

Oh, almost forgot, Mosura Old sea mud is just another name for Mineral powder. SO they are basically the same thing. No need to buy mineral powder if you already have it.

 

 

Edited by jayc

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jayc
1 hour ago, Zoidburg said:

I didn't use a remineralizer.

what remineralizer do you use?

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Zoidburg
3 hours ago, jayc said:

Do you use these two products at each water change?

I *normally* use Prime *OR* Fluval Aqua+ Plus at the recommended dosage

 

3 hours ago, jayc said:

They both seem to do the same thing - treat tap water. Kinda overkill don't you think? And are you using the right amount for your tank size?

That was actually the point... Used more than recommended for both. Well, I don't even know how much Mosura ShiZhen Power I'm supposed to use.

The instructions say to use 1 scoop flat for 10 litres of water. That's all fine and dandy, except it didn't come with a scoop...

Using Fluval Aqua+ Plus and Mosura ShiZhen Power was only a recent change and figured it "couldn't hurt" since all the shrimp are already dying anyway...

The shrimp in the temp tank are doing fine! And their water was treated with Fluval Aqua+ Plus, Mosura ShiZhen Power, Mosura Old Sea Mud Powder and Ebi-ken Sosei. I may have OD'd on the products a little... but like I said, the shrimp are fine. I don't believe it's an issue with the water or the products.


When I wasn't using those products, they were dying. When I started using those products, they were still dying.


With that information, I know it's some issue with the tank itself, not the water, not the supplements.

 

3 hours ago, jayc said:

How's your surface water agitation in the tank? None, little, a lot?

At least moderate. The tank *DID* have an AC30 (for a 20 gallon) and a small sponge filter. When I removed the sponge filter, I did later add in a wooden air stone in it's place for increased oxygen.

Right now, it only has the HOB as it's going through it's cycle.

 

3 hours ago, jayc said:

what remineralizer do you use?

A crappy one... Remineraliz-P

Although I don't like it, it does work. I have 3 tanks set up and have used it in all the tanks. (well, 4 tanks, but one being the temp tank...)

The cherry shrimp in the community tank (with kuhli loaches and currently amanos) are doing fine. I think the population in there might be bigger now than the "shrimp tank" as there have been fewer deaths over-all... and I didn't put very many shrimp in that tank, either... not compared to the shrimp tank.

 

3 hours ago, jayc said:

Oh, almost forgot, Mosura Old sea mud is just another name for Mineral powder. SO they are basically the same thing. No need to buy mineral powder if you already have it.

I don't have Mineral Powder. When I looked more into it, and what products I *DID* have, I realized I have the Old Sea Mud Powder, which is the same as the Benibachi product!

Edited by Zoidburg

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jayc

Well you seem to have eliminated the products and water source. So, yeah, maybe something else in the tank. I really hope you find the cause. At least you always have the temporary tank to fall back on. As you said, the temp tank is doing fine.

 

If you ever find the cause, let us know. If nothing else but to build the knowledge base.

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Zoidburg

I'm leaning mostly towards not having the tank cycled well.

 

I refuse to use fish to cycle a tank.

I did use bacteria in a bottle.

I did put food into the tank to let it sit and rot. Maybe I didn't use enough?

 

The shrimp tank is treated the same way as the community tank. Same water. Same substrate. Same type of driftwood, as far as I can tell. (except for the ceramic log placed in the community tank as a replacement for some wood that was removed) Plants are different, but that shouldn't be an issue... at least, in theory. Several of the plants in the shrimp tank did come from shrimp tanks or community tanks that have shrimp in them. Not completely ruling out all plants, though! Maybe I'm missing something there?

 

But going back to possible cycle issue... both tanks were cycled the same. The community tank does have 4 kuhli loaches in it though, which is a bigger bioload, which would mean more bacteria growth. They don't by any means make a huge mess, but they are fish! So maybe that tank is stable thanks to the loaches?

 

So that's kind of my hope here. It's the only plausible thing I can think of.



The shrimp went into the temp tank the day I set it up. Didn't give it a chance to cycle (although I did add a seeded sponge filter) or grow anything, just tossed them right in after putting in the boiled driftwood, leaves, cones and water. I was expecting to lose some after doing that, but nothing. I don't remember how close the temperature was between the two tanks, either.

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jayc

Squeeze some gunk from the filter media from the community team into the shrimp tank that is cycling.

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