I have some F8  Golden / Snow white Mischlings that I have left to breed together because I don't have any TB for them. I have two tanks and tried to separate the whites from the goldens.  The Whites have given me some very nice Bluebolt TBMM.

So question 1 is the siblings of these BB's are white Mischling  but are they now F1 or are they no longer classed as Mischling- what do I describe them as? I know they can't be F9 as they would have had to be bred back to TB. JayC had written quite an extensive write up of F numbers but I'm not sure that this scenario was covered.

Question 2 is the Golden F8 to Golden F8 have given me some decidedly  reddish shrimp -like the BB but red. I haven't actually seen a Red Bolt in the flesh so to speak but I'm pretty sure they are Red bolt TBMM -is that possible? They aren't the sharp red of CRS.

 

I know the original female  White Mischlings I had were from BB breeding so I can understand the BB side . I also understand that the Goldens come from CRS or Red TB. Given that my line has started throwing up Red Tibees - I have used some Goldens in that breeding too - is it possible they carry Red Bolt gene?

 

I have shown some pictures of the  ? RR Tibee  ? RR TBMM that have started popping up in my Red Tibee  x Mischling lines so I'm guessing the answer must be yes   ? I haven't really researched the Red Bolts as they have never really interested me but having a number of "red goldens " showing up has me intrigued and just wanting confirmation . In the end it doesn't matter as most of my stock stay with me anyway but it would be good to know how to describe them. 

 

Any thoughts? Genetics are just not my thing unfortunately.

I'm off to catch a few and post a picture later.I will try and get some picures but I don't know if it will show up on the camera- my BB are quite dark but don't look it on camera- I really need to learn to use my camera properly!!

 

These are the RR TBMM  ?Tibee that popped up in the Tibee Mischling tank

 

This is one of the BB TBMM there are quite a few others much darker but couldn't get a decent picture - I need to catch them and put them against a white back ground

 

 

Can't answer about your questions, but Woah! Trully awesome shrimps! Congrats!

Edited May 22, 201511 yr by Matuva

Thanks Mutava but honestly the quality isn't like the pure lines, these are way down the line.

These are the varying colours. As I thought the camera doesn't pick it up very well. You can see a white , a golden, Bluebolt and then the redder ones . In life the red is very much more noticeable rather than golden.

I've been getting my brain in a tangle, trying to work out what approximate F# that an F8 X F8 would give. Unfortunately it's not possible to tell because we don't know how many genes control the taiwan bee phenotype. What I do know is that by the time you reach F8, a lot of the CBS genes would have been bred out, so you most likely couldn't get a pure CBS genotype from the cross. My opinion? I would call it an F8 mischling X F8 mischling. Treat it as an F1 and it would be a good head start to breeding mischlings that you could use an F#.

 

As far as red bolts go, I'm in the same position as you. I've never had one (that I know of), but I have a white mischling that is quite pinkish/orangish in colour, so I've put it in with a ruby red to see what I get. Red bolt is possible from mischling x mischling, and red bolts are not the sharp red of a CRS. There has been some discussion on European forums as to whether a red bolt is a taiwan bee or just another colour variation of a snow white/golden. Someone crossed a red bolt back to a ruby red. The outcome? 100% red TB offspring! So proving that a red bolt is a taiwan bee! Your orange shrimp may well be red bolts. If they are not, they are beautiful shrimp anyway.

Thanks Bonsai. I was of the understanding they went back to F1 as well but was unsure if they even would have an F number because they haven't been crossed back to TB. I if I come to the point I need to let them go I will just explain the breeding to the prospective new owner. I have some RR TBMM that I could try putting with a few and see what I get. I realise I need to get pure TB bloodlines back into my stock. I'm quite pleased with what my Mischling to Mischling is giving me though.

The way I see it, the only reason it goes back to F1 is because you can't tell how the genes have recombined with the F8 X F8. If you can get TB from crossing the two, you can also get offspring that has genes equivalent to an F8. But you would also get some equivalent to F7, F6, F5... and so on. So F1 is the safe (re)starting point.

 

Mischling X mischling can get great results. I have a female from that cross that is better than any of my pure BBs! MischXmisch stock is just not as desirable and harder to move on. 

 

 

 

I have some RR TBMM that I could try putting with a few and see what I get.

 

If you don't have any plans for them, do it!

I'm using them in my Red Tibee line but once I know what sex they are I'm sure I can spare one to give it a go. At the moment I keep most of my shrimp although I'm going to have to move some eventually but at the moment it's all just for my own pleasure and learning. So it doesn't really matter what I mix. It's only if and when I move them on that I will need to have an idea of what their breeding is. 3/4 of my stock are a mix of TB, TIBEE and Mischling , only my CRS and 2 tanks of CBS are pure. I just love the not knowing what you might get with the hybrids but I really should concentrate more on pure lines - that's what I keep telling myself anyway!

I cant wait to I get a tank full of blue bolts and red bolts they look stunning

did anything pan out from this breeding line @ineke ?