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pmasa

Breeding towards blues

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pmasa    8
pmasa

Hi all, i am wanting to start a project of breeding towards blue cherry shrimp. I know that the process will take numerous years, so i wanted to start off right. To start with i was wondering what the best starting point would be chocolates or reds, with the aim of a blue shrimp endpoint? The other thing i was wondering is when it comes to getting different colour variations of shrimp is it best to breed for quantity, quality, or both? I figure it is best to try and breed as many shrimplets as possible inorder to increase the likelihood of encountering a genetic variation, but wasn't sure if a strict culling process for colour should also be employed. Cheers in advance for advice.

 

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Shrimpmaster    204
Shrimpmaster

If you have the tanks for it: breed as much as you can. Select the top 10 females and 1 or 2 best males. Put them in a new tank, and start this process over and over again. Also when very good ones pop up in the big colony, you could use them for the top tank.

 

 

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pmasa    8
pmasa

Thanks for the advice. In terms of the "top tank" would you put in those that have hints of different colour variations, or just those that displayed good colour?

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Matuva    133
Matuva

I think he says the tank with the hints of different colors. If you're seeking for blue, and if you want to create your own blue line, you should start with the chocolate to reach the blue Topaz. They are just awesome! The blue velvet is nice too, but the topaz is, for my opinion, the nicest of the blue.

Or you can buy blue topaz straight ;)

Not blue, but you can get black rose from carbon rili. Awesome too! Fastone.jpg.23d7a8c8b12f17d5ca6dff2c0ddec428.jpg

Edited by Matuva

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pmasa    8
pmasa

I do like the blue topaz, looks like i will have to source some chocolates, buying the end results just takes out part of the fun . Might also get some bloody marys out of the chocolates as well. Is there a good chance if i get say 10 females and 2 males that none of them will have the blue gene present?

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Matuva    133
Matuva

If I'm not wrong, you won't get the bloody mary from the chocolate, but from the shoko.

If I remember correctly, the shoko will give you the bloody mary or the chocolate.

  • From the Bloody Mary then, you will have to cull to get the high grade Bloody Mary.
  • The chocolate will give you the blue offsprings only.

With 12 shrimps, I bet you have good chances to catch the blue gene

Edited by Matuva

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pmasa    8
pmasa

Ah ok, i thought i had heard of chocolates throwing blues, blacks and reds but i could be mistaken. Well hopefully 12 will be enough, one would hope that sellers would know what colours their stock has produced in the past...

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Matuva    133
Matuva

Well, keep us updated with your results. Depends on what the seller is going to sell you : shoko named as chocolate, or true chocolate.

Now, I might be wrong. Sure more expert will come and chime in? :)

Edited by Matuva

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jayc    1,401
jayc
2 hours ago, Matuva said:

Well, keep us updated with your results

+1 to Matuva's comment. And share lots of pics. This will be an interesting exercise in breeding.

Edited by jayc

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pmasa    8
pmasa

Thanks for all the input. Now that i have a starting point i guess i can start the process of multiple years of frustration and hopefully at the end success. I will update this thread when i start/ when any interesting developments happen, with plenty of pictures.

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Shrimpmaster    204
Shrimpmaster
On 22-2-2017 at 6:04 AM, pmasa said:

Now that i have a starting point i guess i can start the process of multiple years of frustration and hopefully at the end success.

Haha, don't take it to hard, it's fun to see the development these years, just enjoy every little step you can achieve :D

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pmasa    8
pmasa

Hi all, just a quick update on this. I managed to acquire some chocolate and black shrimp from revolutionhope which showed some good potential when they arrived. At this stage i am just waiting for the shrimp to get to the right age to become berried, and will provide updates as a make progress/ try to resist the temptation to work towards a black line at the same time.

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pmasa    8
pmasa

Just a quick update, quite a few shrimplets are now swimming around varying greatly in colour. Amongst the blacks, browns and yet to colour up shrimp there appears to be a couple of baby blue shrimp, so far they have grown and not turned into blacks so i am hopeful they will stay blue... Hopefully if they stay this way i will be able to start line breeding them. The chocolate shrimps in this line are pretty nice so i plan to keep those separate and have a line of those going, thanks a lot for such fantastic shrimp @revolutionhope . I still need to get a macro adaptor for my phone, but when i do i will make sure to post some pictures.

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pmasa    8
pmasa

Another quick update, turns out my phone camera is better than i thought. Images still aren't great but here are the juvenile  blues from choc parents.

20170801_180723.jpg

20170801_180309.jpg

20170801_180214.jpg

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pmasa    8
pmasa

As an aside to the blues, one of the males in the tank was a red-brown colour so i have moved him into a separate tank with 3 nice females. Hopefully i can perhaps get a bloody mary line out of it... I will post a picture of the male when i next spot him.

 

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Madmerv    130
Madmerv

Just saw this thread. You really got a jump start on that blue line with the shrimp @revolutionhope gave you. You must be stoked.

Watching with interest. Once your line is stable i will hit you up for some and help you recoup some costs.

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Baccus    203
Baccus

It looks like you are on the road to success with the blue cherry shrimp.

I was recently culling undesired colours from my black cherry breeding project and discovered two distinctly blue sub adults. These black cherries have come from choc/ black parentage.  But I also did have blues appearing in one of my tanks when it was entirely red cherries. The blues that came up in the red tank however never held their blue, going blue over night and when the lights came back on the following day quickly returned to red. I suspect this was due to pH fluctuations during the night when the plants stopped photosynthesising. In this same tank I also started getting rilli's turning up, all the original reds had come from one local source, back when I had thought even having red cherry shrimp was not possible in my area because no shops stocked them, and I didn't know shrimp sites existed in Australia that people traded shrimp on.

It can be fun to develop your own line of colour, but also frustrating and you need to be ruthless in removing even a hint of the wrong coloured shrimplets before they get a chance to mature, breed and release their offspring into your carefully selected breeding program. (Believe me it is near impossible to remove newborn shrimplets from amongst gravel, and they are expert hiders in any plant life so daily if not twice daily inspections of the breeding tank is a must). Also keep in mind that shrimp can change colour drastically depending not only on their genetics but also the water parameters. So when you think you have stabilised the blue gene in your shrimp be sure to try them in different tanks, to make sure they hold their colour and intensity. I have moved cherry shrimp from one tank that looked amazing to another tank (same water source just different substrate/ timbers/ plants/ lighting) and often they have changed intensity of colour, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

Something else I think seems to aid in the intensity/ quality of colour aside from food and water is paradoxically  the presence of what the shrimp see as potential predators. For some reason tanks that I have had potential predator fish in with the shrimp the shrimp have had better colour. I doubt the fish would be selecting only the poorly coloured shrimp and leaving the intensely coloured shrimp alone, so I actually wonder if the shrimp show their health and vitality (and ability to escape so not worth chasing to eat) by carrying intense solid colouration. Other tanks that have no such potential predators I find it much harder to get nice vibrant strongly coloured shrimp.

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revolutionhope    424
revolutionhope

Interesting points@Baccus: - I remember reading that shrimp show a better colour when on dark substrate in an effort to camouflage themselves - unaware that by increasing the intensity of their shell markings/colouration is counterproductive since having been selected for bright colour ! Only speculation in any case.

@pmasa: with regards to selecting your blues from choc/black, and in line with what@Baccus: has said; I have more recently learned from some more experienced breeders than I that you might find a lot of them revert to choc later on when they mature.

 

Also, some choc juveniles might go blue later but that will probably be a less frequent occurrence. Ideally you'd want 3 divisions or tanks for this project to progress as best it can I guess!

 

Really glad you're having success with them, putting them to good use and enjoying the breeding process :-)

 

will

 

 

 

Ps there are ways to retrofit dividers into tanks. Poret foam being one of the best options apparently, unfortunately poret is fairly expensive but there's also other ways out there that you can get away with especially seeing as they are cherries and the disturbance won't be as big a problem as it would with other more sensitive type of shrimps e.g. caridina.

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KillieOrCory    78
KillieOrCory

Nice. Look forward to seeing the progress.

I am too impatient to start from scratch but the challenge seems worthwhile to attempt.

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pmasa    8
pmasa

Thanks for all the tips @Baccus, the route that i am currently taking is to get a at least on blue adult then separate it with a male/female and go from there. At this stage i am still waiting for them to grow to adult and to make sure that they hold their colour through to adulthood. @revolutionhope i have a feeling that black shrimp start as blue and the colour gets deeper as they get older until the point that it almost looks black. I found when i first opened the parcel with the shrimp that the stressed state caused more of the underlying blue to come out, before darkening again. I currently have 4 tanks at my disposal for shrimp, however i would like to get into the caridinas and devote a tank to them... As an aside i have found that the 3 females (+1 reddish male) in my 60L community tank are significantly larger than those in their own tanks, i am wondering if the slightly warmer temperature and significantly more abundant food is playing a role in the size.

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    • pmasa
      Thanks for all the tips @Baccus, the route that i am currently taking is to get a at least on blue adult then separate it with a male/female and go from there. At this stage i am still waiting for them to grow to adult and to make sure that they hold their colour through to adulthood. @revolutionhope i have a feeling that black shrimp start as blue and the colour gets deeper as they get older until the point that it almost looks black. I found when i first opened the parcel with the shrimp that the stressed state caused more of the underlying blue to come out, before darkening again. I currently have 4 tanks at my disposal for shrimp, however i would like to get into the caridinas and devote a tank to them... As an aside i have found that the 3 females (+1 reddish male) in my 60L community tank are significantly larger than those in their own tanks, i am wondering if the slightly warmer temperature and significantly more abundant food is playing a role in the size.
    • EBC
      It was Fluval Shrimp Stratum which I have learned tends to have a relatively short life span compared to other soils. Will probably just replace it all in about 6 months when I move again. Any recommendations for one that will last the longest? And one that I can actually buy in Australia? But yes, I imagine that she was just weak from the pH swings from before. The three remaining males all seem perfectly healthy for now at least. I'll give it some time to make sure there are no more deaths and then maybe find a nice female to add. I have seen varying opinions on this, but how often would you suggest doing water changes (standard, not emergency) on a small tank like mine (28L)? I was doing them pretty infrequently before (~monthly; 20%) as I was using tap water so I wanted to avoid too many. Now that I will have an RO system would ~10% weekly be better? Or something else? Thanks again.
    • KillieOrCory
      Nice. Look forward to seeing the progress. I am too impatient to start from scratch but the challenge seems worthwhile to attempt.
    • revolutionhope
      When you added soil can I ask what soil it was ? Did you pre-cycle it? Also it's worth noting that if that shrimp had been through some stress while exposed to high pH they will have weakened immune systems and so other little issues can tip them over the edge.   More than once I've discovered problems and corrected them as carefully as I could only to still watch the occasional shrimp die over the following days and weeks still despite conditions being ideal I believe.   will     PS Just as an aside - ¥others will have different opinions and prefer to do multiple smaller waterchanges but my modus operandi when I feel that a tank is "stuffed" is to do one or two huuuuuuge waterchanges - carefully allowing the new water to drip in slowly over 24-48 hours and then leave it be. The three times now that I've done this to get myself out of a bad spot I have found that although some already weak shrimp may continue to pass away over the following days even up to 2 or 3 weeks later but the healthier ones bounce back quickly and are breeding already within a few weeks.
    • EBC
      No real updates unfortunately. All water parameters (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, KH, GH, pH) were perfect on the day she died. All I can think is that the lack of buffering capacity left in the soil resulted in pH swings that killed her.  I added more soil and the water is back to being buffered at pH 6.4. I have switched to only using RO water now (bought 20L for now but have an RO unit on the way). Hopefully the substrate will buffer a bit longer now and this won't happen again. Just a shame as there are only 3 adult male CRS left in the tank plus the shrimplets from the female that just died. Could be a while before the numbers get back up on their own so I may need to replenish them (also a bit of genetic diversity would be good). How do people usually handle switching out substrate? Especially with baby shrimps around, that sounds like a real hassle and you are bound to lose some. Is there some special technique? Thanks!
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