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Don't disagree with anything you said there @Blue Ridge. Completely agree. We have already solved one issue for Steensj2004 with the rocks raising TDS, KH, GH and pH. He has removed the rocks, and the pH has plummeted in the last couple of days getting back towards equilibrium. So we are now working on stabilising the tank after the rocks were removed. Maybe we should have gone slower at removing the rocks. I don't know if changing out the substrate is an option for Steensj2004. This is the long term, ideal solution. But in the mean time, if changing substrate is not an option for the short term, than I believe Steensj2004 maintains his current maintenance procedure and keep the tank at 6.5 pH and 190 TDS that he currently has. If changing substrate is not an option at all, then we need to maintain stability until the buffering is exhausted. We don't care for the buffering of low pH because these are cherries, not caridina. The existing cherries were used to much higher pH anyway. We are just working with what Steensj2004 has on hand at the moment. RO water and Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ is one of those items. Fluval Stratum is the other item, which is pulling pH down as low as 5.9. Cherry shrimps are currently in the tank. They have been used to 7.2+ pH and 250+ TDS only a few days ago. We don't want the pH to drop too much further, as the existing cherries are not used to pH that low. What would you do in this case?

Posted this on another forum but thought it might be of some use here. For the first few years of shrimp keeping I bought many shrimp-specific items that I no longer see any need for. Among these are dried leaves, cones and such. There's nothing wrong with these "products," but I do feel that they are rather pricey for what they are and most of us probably have similar shrimp foods growing all around us. I've come to use mostly oak leaves for my shrimp and put these in every new tank as well. If there's any downside to these vs catappa and such, it isn't evident. These last about the same amount of time, release some tannins, grow biofilm well and basically "seem" the same to my untrained eye. I like to cut a limb or find one broken from wind and dry that out rather than picking leaves off of the ground: After about a month, they will look like this: I pull the leaves off and stick them in baggies and crush them somewhat: Then I add RO water to the baggies and let sit overnight. I didn't photograph this step. Next I strain off the water and add them to tanks. These four have been running with no shrimp, two of them since April. The idea is to let as much algae and biofilm grow as needed: Total cost, 9 cents for the baggie, and maybe a penny's worth of RO water. The limb above provided a modest pile of leaf litter for 8 aquariums.

Fantastic advice from blue ridge. I should probably have left my re-setup tank for longer than I did (a month) but hopefully it will settle down in time. Unfortunately you can't buy patience and we all get too excited when looking at an empty running tank! Hopefully you are right Blue ridge about the biofilm when starting up as my shrimp won't touch any foods or veg I have tried yet? Also,as blue ridge says, the parameters you mention above at the moment would suit caridina shrimp, but they are more fragile and sensitive, but you have some time to consider that? Also if your tap/source water is PH6 then you may not need to change the substrate if/when it stops buffering in the future? The only other thing that would then be different as you just want GH+ remineraliser for caridina, but GH/KH+ for cherry shrimps. Simon

Thanks. I’m going to ride this out for a while longer. I really don’t want to nuke livestock because I’m impatient. The three inside now seem to be thriving. Several molts have occurred without any failures or problems. They are all very active and are plugging along doing ,”Shrimp Stuff.” Thanks for all the help again!

I actually think you are sorted as you are and are correctly just going to see how it goes. I wouldn't worry too much about a PH of .1 and I would (and did, as have many others) stick with the soil substrate and cherry shrimps should be fine. Any new ones you should take longer to acclimatise if it is still a bit low when you get some? The soil will start to lose its buffering slowly anyway, not all at once so the shrimp will adapt readily enough especially being the hardier cherry shrimp. As you have removed the rock completely there isn't anything in your tank to cause any swings in parameters so I expect your all set now and it should stay stable enough? It may take a bit of time until the buffering stops but my cherries were fine in PH6 and many others keep cherry shrimps in the soil substrate, I have 2 such tanks. Simon

Hang about? I’m not sure what that means, lol. I didn’t take all the rock out at once, but it is all removed as of now. Only driftwood, plants, and Stratum remain. PH has stayed at the 6.4- 6.5 range since my last post about ph. I’ll see how this continues for the time being, I’d like to be higher than 6.5, but it is what it is. Removing the substrate is an option, one I’m not excited about, but if you insist it’s needed, I suppose I could. That would inevitably stir up a mini cycle, no? Things as of now are: PH:6.5 and seemingly holding GH:6 KH:1 TDS: 185-190 I’ve backed off fertilizer completely, as well as any other additives besides food and BacterAE. Ive changed the amount of SS GH/KH I’m adding to my RO/DI. I’ve also ordered the GH+ only supplement and began using a Shrimp King pellet food, that is easier to feed and subsequently remove when it’s uneaten. Still using RO/DI water, and have adjusted my Lighting schedule slightly. The Tannins in the driftwood are bringing the PH down as well I assume. At this point, I may target Caridina in this tank and set up a separate, more appropriate Neo tank.

You two seem to have it well covered and I think Steensj2004 is pretty much sorted anyway as he doesn't hang about from what we have seen here? The plants and the natural look are almost certainly why people use soil even with Neocaridina shrimps. My last tank (Betta) it was pure dumb luck the shrimps survived as I didn't want them (culls) anyway. You are both spot on in that shrimps thrive stability, and fluctuating water isn't going to suit them but I personally suggested trying to exhaust the substrate as he only has 3 shrimps at the moment anyway so if he can get the parameters ideal quickly/quicker it will be a better starting point for the new shrimps he wants to get and going forward from there - worst case scenario he may lose some or all of the 3 he has now admittedly but it would be for the greater good/long term? I used JBL soil so it may be different but the PH went from 6 at the very start 1 march to 7 by 29 march so exhausted really quickly! I bow to both of your way more experience, just thought I should explain the theory. Simon

Just my opinion but I think the shrimp would do better at 0 KH and >6.0 pH at a steady basis than to have water buffered to more appropriate parameters and then it bouncing back down from the soil. Over and over every again water change. If there's one thing I've learned about Neos, these things hate change. And they can thrive and breed in acid water on ADA, lots of folks do it (myself included). If the soil is going to remain, I'd either leave it alone or attempt to find some balance that can be achieved with a small amount of dragon stone. Or just bite the bullet and change out the substrate. I'm not trying to be contrary here (on my first day, no less) but I truly believe that adding buffered water each water change to try to exhaust the soil is taking away the #1 factor in keeping shrimp alive -stability. With new shrimp, particularly imports, they tend to have some losses acclimating sometimes. And it's a fairly new tank, as shrimp tanks go. Any that make it past 2-3 months should live to a ripe old age and if you can keep even a gendered pair long enough to drop a nice batch of babies, they should positively thrive in the water they hatched in, whichever way you go.

I also use oak leaves and some others but I just gather a carrier bag full of brown dropped leaves in winter, unless I speak nicely to a gardener when they are around doing maintenance in the gardens in winter? House and gardens aren't near enough to a road to suffer from any pollution luckily - important when gathering them that there is no pollution or pesticides etc on them! If you have natural woods nearby that would be a great way to get loads? They then go in the tank, as is, a few at a time (they float for a day or 2 as they are dry) throughout the year and the rest just stay in the plastic carrier bag - if they were damp/wet when collected I just dry them out on a table in the sun before storing them in the plastic carrier bag. About half an hour of collecting leaves means enough for a whole year. They should be fallen leaves that are brown as far as I am aware, not picked from the tree! I think the others I do this with are mulberry (???) but I do also buy/use Indian Almond Leaves, they won't grow in our climate as far as I know???? Great write up Blue Ridge! Simon

Having owned a fish store and being a big shrimp hobbyist, my perspective on the matter is that so much depends on where the seller (whether local fish shop or online vendor) is getting their own stock. Here in the US, most shrimp available at either place seem to be imported into the country. Better sellers will mark their shrimp as either "home bred" or "imports." With drip acclimation into the best aged tanks, imported shrimp are still hit or miss. Unfortunately, most varieties I am looking for are unicorns to find home bred. But if you can just get a few to survive to breed, following generations prove sturdy. Ornamental aquarium shrimp are fragile and don't ship well compared to most fishes. If all else was equal, I would prefer to buy them from a shop who has absorbed most of the losses. That's just rarely an option in my area.

Ah, I misunderstood. I thought the tank was just now three months old and the shrimp were added after set up. But yeah, outside of testing water here and there and some small partial water changes, this is so much more hands off than reef keeping. In a shrimp only planted tank, there is so little bioload from these tiny creatures (unless overfed of course) that maintenance is minimal. Especially to those of us who come from a side of the hobby where you are often getting your hands wet. Am I correct that only one Neo has survived? Even if so if it's a female, there's a good chance she's been bred and can save the population for you. Just keep an eye on that abdomen.

Thanks! I mentioned in the OP the tank was 3 months old when I started adding shrimp. Ammonia testing is in the 0.00 in every test I’ve done. I also done reef tanks for years, I’m finding out that often things from the reef world don’t directly translate to the shrimp world.

@Steensj2004 You've gotten good advice all around and I think you are on the right track. The biggest thing I would change going forward is let any tank set up for shrimp go a bit longer before adding livestock. I typically set mine up for 3 months with just substrate, leaf litter, plants and snails and let a good base of algae and biofilm develop. This is probably overkill but my luck has changed dramatically since adopting this method. Ours is not a hobby for the impatient and nothing good happens fast in an ecosystem. Another issue with many of these active soils is that they produce NH4 for the first several weeks. While this is great to give plants a nice head start even trace ammonia is incredibly hard on shrimp. I suspect Caridina will do great in that tank if you decide to try some down the road. Do drip acclimate, and feed ridiculously lightly until you get a population built up. If they aren't swarming any added food, there's enough for them to forage on in the tank. Small populations of these things require almost no care! Coming from the reef side of the hobby, it was quite difficult for me to have these tanks of creatures and not be "doing anything."

I don't know what its official name is but here is a link (I know the supplier isn't of any interest to you) to what I got. https://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/rocks/1381-tropica-lava-rock-5703249715104.html?search_query=lava&results=21 Its looks are very unique so you either like the look or not? Most of mine is covered with moss anyway? Or like this one but I would glue the plant to it rather than see an elastic band and it is soooo easy to glue plants to driftwood or rocks, it is just super glue though has to be non-toxic type; https://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/aquarium-plants/2646-bucephalandra-wavy-green-on-lava-rock-tropica-5703249939012.html?search_query=lava&results=21 Simon

By lava rock you mean scoria right? Definitely will do that.

Oh, and if anything in my post above strikes you as the wrong move, please, let me know. I’m very appreciative for the help and knowledge you’ve provided. Lots I didn’t want to hear, but I’d rather be told I’m wrong and fix the tank, than reject the obvious experience you all have that I don’t. Im going to have to start frequenting this forum more often. By far, this forum is one of the better ones I’ve ever used for any of my hobbies.

The only rock I use now is Lava rock but you either like the look of it or not, it is different! If your water is so soft (lucky you) you can just slowly and easily reduce all the parameters by doing small water changes with no (or very little) remineraliser, I would do a 10% water change with just the tap water (dechlorinated) for a few days and then see where you are? This would be the easiest way to do it but the new water should be added gradually by dripper or some other method? You don't want any sudden changes anyway! If the berried shrimp is ready to have the babies they usually hide (naturally) so I wouldn't worry too much if you haven't seen any dead bodies! I THINK it needs to be a certain type of vinegar (white if my memory is any good) but I tested my rocks the other suggested way, test the water before putting the rock into it,then put the rock in it, and then retest the water a week later, it is more likely to be the rock (as JayC stated) than the gravel but I guess you can do the same test with the gravel in a glass to be sure! Simon

Tried this out tonight, started the glass experiment, and realised that my tap water is actually really soft. Kh is 0, gh is 30ppm, and ph is 6... why didn't I notice the difference earlier! Forgot the gravel, oops, I'll try that tomorrow morning. I put my whole supply of indian almond leaves (3) into the tank just to try to lower it a tinsy bit for the time being so I don't lose any more killies or shrimp (can't tell if I am actually losing shrimp as haven't seen bodies but my berried female has dissapeared completely sooooo). I've heard that vinegar isn't strong enough (youtube), but does it work for you? And in the case that it's the rocks (pls don't be gravel I don't want to redo my whole tank) are there any alternative rocks that don't increase gh/kh? JayC mentioned slate in steensj2004's forum on a similar rock issue, any other ones that work? Thanks so much!

6-8 months. if you keep making it work hard with your SS GH/KH+, maybe towards the 6 month mark. That should be fine for Neo shrimps. Add another little rock of yours back in might bump it up closer to 7. But that is entirely optional. pH 6.5 should be fine for Cherries to adapt to. Except that Steensj2004 already has cherries in the tank and they aren't doing too well. So we have to try to get the parameters under control with the Fluval stratum that he has in the tank, which is fighting to bring pH down. He is balancing the pH, GH, KH using SS GH/KH+ and some rocks against the Fluval stratum soil.

If it makes you feel any better, what you've done happens all the time! Acid-buffering substrate with a CACO3 stone that "fight" one another, and conflicting information between the two genera of shrimp can cause a lot of confusion. But where you are right now should be a perfect environment for crystals, bees, and such. Aqua soil, remineralized RO water (GH+ only, not the KH and GH product) and you should be all set for most Caridina. If buying shrimp online, just be sure that they are "home bred" and not imports. Survival rate is typically much higher this way. I prefer to buy from other hobbyists whenever possible. If you really want cherries (Neocaridina) they will live on Aqua Soil but the water will always be softer and more acidic than ideal. But cherries are tough creatures and people keep them in tanks set up for Caridina all the time with success. As for how long the substrate buffers, that is determined by how much "work" it has to do. If using soft water and no lime based stones in the aquarium, it is said go for many years. You don't want to speed that up in my opinion, kind of defeats the purpose of buying buffering soil.

And I meant to address your point about local fish stores. Yeah, my labor wages paid out and electric bill were almost always more than I sold in fish each month. Let alone ever paying for all the tanks and equipment. It really is a terribly difficult business to make work. Once upon a time, customers would buy lights, filters, heaters and so forth from you and this could offset losses in the fish room. But once everyone started buying everything with a plug online, and just coming to shops for livestock and the glass aquarium itself, the local fish stores began to close right and left. There were 6 locally owned shops in my town of 92,000 when I opened mine, and now there are only big box stores. All the "mom and Pop" shops have closed.

How low does this substrate buffer, inknownit isn’t an exact science, but has anyone had experience? The PH has parked at 6.4-6.5.

Great to have the update and so pleased to hear all is working out well. Those pictures are of lovely coloured/patterned crystals and it is fantastic that you have some babies, and the mother shrimp has grey eggs so they are probably not long before they hatch. You are pretty much there if you have babies and they survive, that's how I feel anyway. I will be so pleased if I get to that point again but at the moment it is very drab but plodding on, very uninspiring! Hope the other tanks are doing as well. Simon

You're welcome Jo. It's great to see you have so much success with your shrimps. Nothing cuter than those baby CRS.

IME, the healthiest and highest quality has always buying directly from hobbyist, usually a small setup in their garage or fish room. Next was specialty store/importer, last is the local TFS, both often having stock that has been imported, transported and kept in less than ideal conditions... Buying directly from hobbyist has always produced the best results for me...