Substrate for TB/TBM Shrimp?

[ShrimpDesigns]

Hi SKF Members,

I am going to be re-doing my 30l crs cube soon and am going to be keeping TB's and TBM's. I have already bought a RO system for the tank but am yet to pickup other supplies which I am planning to buy while visiting Melbourne with my family.

I am planning on buying...

Fluval C2 HOB Filter

Fluval Tronic 50W heater

Aqua Zonic light ( already bought )

Hardscape ( probably honeycomb rocks )

But I still don't know what substrate. I am thinking of Malaya as I really like the colour, ability to hold nutrients for plants over a long time and keep the pH fairly low ( too low? )

Cheers for any suggestions,

Louis

Edited January 9, 2015 by ShrimpDesigns

[OzShrimp]

Benibachi substrate :P

[jayc]

But I still don't know what substrate. I am thinking of Malaya as I really like the colour, ability to hold nutrients for plants over a long time and keep the pH fairly low ( too low? )

ADA Malaya Africana will get down to 6.0 pH, while ADA Africana Malaya will get down to the 5s in pH.

I'd pick Africana specifically for TBs and you like that colour.

Edited January 10, 2015 by jayc

[ShrimpDesigns]

Thanks guys I think I'll either get Malaya or Africana, does one or the other hold up for longer or hold more nutrients?

[jayc]

Sorry, got the substrates the wrong way round in my previous post. Corrected now.

Amazonia is the most fertile nutrient rich for plants, obviously, since it also has the most NH4 (ammonia), and will buffer pH to around 6.8.

Amazonia II is as fertile and nutrient rich for plants, but has slightly less NH4 than Amazonia I, and buffers pH to around 6.4 - 6.5.

Africana is apparently in between Amazonia and Malaya in nutrient levels. And will need fertilisers added for plants. Might still be ok for mosses and aquatic lliverworts like subwassertang without fertilisers. Africana buffers the water to about 5.9 - 6.0.

Malaya is apparently the least nutrient rich. With very little NH4 and NO2. But will still need fertilisers added for plants. You might be okay for mosses and aquatic lliverworts like subwassertang without fertilisers. Malaya will buffer pH down to 5.5 - 5.6 and will last the longest in buffer the water. Some have found the pH drop to the 4s during cycling before settling around 5.5.

So if you are going for Africana or Malaya for the colour and for Taiwan Bees, then be aware that they aren't the best for plants since nutrient levels are not as good as Amazonia. But if you keep your TBs in a tank with only a few simple mosses, then Africana and Malaya will be not problem and will suit TBs or Crystals really well.

Edited January 10, 2015 by jayc

[ShrimpDesigns]

Sorry, got the substrates the wrong way round in my previous post. Corrected now.

 

Amazonia is the most fertile nutrient rich for plants, obviously, since it also has the most NH4 (ammonia), and will buffer pH to around 6.8.

Amazonia II is as fertile and nutrient rich for plants, but has slightly less NH4 than Amazonia I, and buffers pH to around 6.4 - 6.5.

 

Africana is apparently in between Amazonia and Africana in nutrient levels. And will need fertilisers added for plants. Might still be ok for mosses and aquatic lliverworts like subwassertang without fertilisers. Africana buffers the water to about 5.9 - 6.0.

 

Malaya is apparently the least nutrient rich. With very little NH4 and NO2. But will still need fertilisers added for plants. You might be okay for mosses and aquatic lliverworts like subwassertang without fertilisers. Malaya will buffer pH down to 5.5 - 5.6 and will last the longest in buffer the water. Some have found the pH drop to the 4s during cycling before settling around 5.5.

 

So if you are going for Africana or Malaya for the colour and for Taiwan Bees, then be aware that they aren't the best for plants since nutrient levels are not as good as Amazonia. But if you keep your TBs in a tank with only a few simple mosses, then Africana and Malaya will be not problem and will suit TBs or Crystals really well.

Thanks heaps jayc! I think I'll go for africana as it will buffer pH to the most appropriate level and the most advanced plant I will be growing is going to be reineckii mini ( lots of iron and laterite willr help right? ) although the colour isn't my favorite I wont be able to see it

as I'm going to be creating a bommie like scape which only has substrate on the mountainous areas and then inert sand surrounding it in the flats areas. Thanks so much again!

Louis

[Squiggle]

Personally, benibachi is my fav for shrimp tanks with a few plants & Cal Aqua Black Earth Premium is my fav for planted tanks with shrimp in them.

[jc12]

I'm using Cal Aqua Labs BEP in a planted shrimp tank. 2" thick in a 2 ft tank. PH is around 5.5-6. Plants and moss grow very well without CO2.

[Shrimpy Daddy]

I started off shrimp keeping with TB and most of my knowledge are with TB than other shrimps. As such, I would like to chip in my knowledge.

 

TB and other soft water shrimp, such as CRS and CBS variants, absorb a lot of nutrients through water column. Since they are used to mild acidic water that has a lot of bioavailable nutrients, they are very inefficient in absorbing them when you compared them with Tiger shrimp. Hence, they will need an environment where there are enough H+ ion to reclaim the precipitated nutrients. However, having pH lower than 6 will create more problems. H+ ion will increase the oxidising effect and the shrimp will need more Calcium to combat it; cell will die easily from oxidation. Increasing the acidic of the water will tip some chemical equilibrium towards the acid side. For example, encouraging NO3 to form nitric acid that is toxic in large quantity.

 

As such, the optimum pH for TB or any soft water shrimp will be 6.2 to 6.6. Given said that, I tested to keep them at the extreme end of pH 5.8 and 6.8 does not shown apparently adverse effect.

 

If you are selecting ADA AS substrate for buffering, I will suggest you to go for Amazonia instead. Africana will be too acidic and later on, you have to put aragonite in the filter to prevent the pH from dropping that will kill shrimp. If you prefer aquasoil, you may explore other brands too. I had used Elos Terrablack and it is good too. Although not as rich as ADA AS when you are keeping plants, it is faster to setup (less leeching). There are many other brands out there, such as the Benibachi Squiggle mentioned. Just beware on those Taiwanese or Chinese brand. They usually leech a lot of acid on first week and became inert in the second week.

 

Alternatively, you could go for inert substrate and buffer the water with peat filter media. The benefit of this is that you will be able to control the pH consistently by the amount of peat filter media, and inert substrate does not leech much stuffs (such as organics and silica) into the water column. The cons for inert substrate is that you will need to provide the shrimp with mineral via diet and water column. I don't think it is really a bad point because even Aquasoil will deplete shrimp usable nutrients within a few months (most of the nutrients are trapped under the substrate and only can be used by rooting stem plant). Hence even with aquasoil, you will need to supplement the shrimp with nutrients sooner than you would expect.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Shrimpy Daddy

[buck]

When you say the nutrients get trapped under the substrate, wouldn't an under gravel filter solve that problem?

[Shrimpy Daddy]

UGF will make it worse. Especially ADA AS that contains ammonium and will drop powder over time. Plus UGF have many other issue of it's own.

[buck]

Yeah I figure the powder would be an issue but wouldn't the flow of water though the soil allow the nutrients to also flow through rather then getting trapped?

[Shrimpy Daddy]

There are more problems created by UGF and not just nutrients trapped. In addition, if water constantly flowing through the substrate, there will not be enough acid recycle the nutrients too.

[ShrimpDesigns]

Thanks for all your input everyone! I ended up purchasing a 9 litre bag of Africana powder even though its only a 30 litre tank I'm looking for some enourmous slopes. Probably will keep everyone updated with a journal.

Louis

[Disciple]

Sorry, got the substrates the wrong way round in my previous post. Corrected now.

Amazonia is the most fertile nutrient rich for plants, obviously, since it also has the most NH4 (ammonia), and will buffer pH to around 6.8.

Amazonia II is as fertile and nutrient rich for plants, but has slightly less NH4 than Amazonia I, and buffers pH to around 6.4 - 6.5.

Africana is apparently in between Amazonia and Malaya in nutrient levels. And will need fertilisers added for plants. Might still be ok for mosses and aquatic lliverworts like subwassertang without fertilisers. Africana buffers the water to about 5.9 - 6.0.

Malaya is apparently the least nutrient rich. With very little NH4 and NO2. But will still need fertilisers added for plants. You might be okay for mosses and aquatic lliverworts like subwassertang without fertilisers. Malaya will buffer pH down to 5.5 - 5.6 and will last the longest in buffer the water. Some have found the pH drop to the 4s during cycling before settling around 5.5.

So if you are going for Africana or Malaya for the colour and for Taiwan Bees, then be aware that they aren't the best for plants since nutrient levels are not as good as Amazonia. But if you keep your TBs in a tank with only a few simple mosses, then Africana and Malaya will be not problem and will suit TBs or Crystals really well.

 

I was just curious if anyone knew what would happen if you did a 50-50 mix of Amazonia and Africana. Am I thinking too simplistic that a mix soil of Africana and Amazonia II would achieve a PH of around 6.2? or are there other factors you have to take into account?

[buck]

I thought about something like this but i figured they would just keep buffering each other and exhaust them selves in the struggle?

[Disciple]

I thought about something like this but i figured they would just keep buffering each other and exhaust them selves in the struggle?

 

Ok that makes sense. Thanks for pointing it out

[buck]

That was just my theory, I could be wrong, I was hopeing some one who actually new would chime in haha

I was thinking of using Africa as the majority of the substrate and cap it woth amazonia Ii sand because I like the dark substrate look. But yeah thought they would just fight each other resulting in a wast of money on an active substrate.

[salvanost]

<--- using ada amazonia

get ph 4.8

 

i will share again later, when my shrimp room is ready

 

my main project would include 10x 9L ada amazonia

i will try to check the ph, because i want to breed cory pigmy and testing if cory pygmy could eat and eliminating planaria from ada amazonia soil

Edited January 23, 2015 by salvanost

[Disciple]

Cool that sounds interesting keep us updated.