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ineke

It pays to know your shrimp behaviour

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DeagonTheo

You're probably right about the consistency of sand, there could well be differences, but I have yet to see any living animal that can't put up with some degree of difference. I personally don't see any shrimp in the wild living in RO water especially cherry shrimp.

Fish and shrimp adapt to their environment, just like a polar bear on the Gold Coast. When it comes to constant inbreeding, that's a different thing, even dogs start getting all kinds of ailments, hence a lot of shrimp can't tolerate too wide a fluctuation in parameters.

I've got an experimental tank with cherry shrimp in it and they're thriving, the tank has garden soil and garden fertiliser in it. The tank was originally setup to grow Anubias out of water but things went a bit haywire with hair algae and mosquito wrigglers, so I put Platies and shrimp in there forgetting that I had garden fertiliser in there.

The fish are thriving and so are the shrimp.

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newbreed

It's a shame this hasn't worked for you Ineke. I too love the idea of a light coloured substrate, much easier to see darker shrimps!!

I used to have palpitations every time I tried to find my tiger mischling. It just blended into the soil, sometimes it was right in front of me and I could not see it.

I might setup a trial tank with part beninachi part sand. I have seen some others on here. Majority beninachi but a small area, maybe ten percent, sand. I would put the feeding bowl in this light area so I can view the shrimps clearly at least daily. If I do this I will start a thread with WPs.

Hope it all works out for you Ineke! :)

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DeagonTheo

Great idea, I've got an 8 foot tank with Frontosa and Orange Lelupi. The tank has black substrate, so the Lelupi turned black, not pretty.

So I made a white beach in the middle of the tank with calcium carbonate surrounded by stones to keep the calcium carbonate separate, now the Lelupi are orange again.

Its no good keeping fish or shrimp if you can't see them and enjoy them. There's always a way around things.

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Squiggle
You're probably right about the consistency of sand' date=' there could well be differences, but I have yet to see any living animal that can't put up with some degree of difference. I personally don't see any shrimp in the wild living in RO water especially cherry shrimp.Fish and shrimp adapt to their environment, just like a polar bear on the Gold Coast. When it comes to constant inbreeding, that's a different thing, even dogs start getting all kinds of ailments, hence a lot of shrimp can't tolerate too wide a fluctuation in parameters.I've got an experimental tank with cherry shrimp in it and they're thriving, the tank has garden soil and garden fertiliser in it. The tank was originally setup to grow Anubias out of water but things went a bit haywire with hair algae and mosquito wrigglers, so I put Platies and shrimp in there forgetting that I had garden fertiliser in there.The fish are thriving and so are the shrimp.[/quote']I completely agree with you, some wild varieties of shrimp are a lot more hardy & resistant to WP changes but then again some aren't. Zebra's, for instance, are very fragile & a lot of members have had big failures(myself included with my Typhus) but people like Northboy, Fishmosy, Wayne & Baccus are leading the way & starting to have success with native sp. Particularly Bob, Ben & Wayne with Zebs & in doing so have recently found that they live in almost pure RO/Rain water with incredibly low TDS. So in this case, something as small as this problem with the inconsistency of the commercially available pool sand would kill them all in no time. That being said, shrimp like Cherries particularly are incredibly hardy & adaptive & it's great to see people experimenting with their WP & seeing how far they can actually go without problems. This sort of this will inevitably lead to shrimp being easier to keep & a larger portion of the general aquarium community keeping them with greater success. :encouragement:Can I suggest getting super fine Quartz gravel/sand in white? I have my Blacks & Chocs in with fine quartz sand & they are loving it & the best part is the WP are fairly stable :victorious:

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ineke

As I said I don't want to play around with water parameters and have to adjust my ph every 5 minutes. What I had first wasn't broke- the shrimp have been constantly breeding, then to see them frantic and I do mean frantic told me something wasn't right. I might have got a bad batch of sand , I might have mixed my minerals wrong -although I test the water before it goes in- there are a multitude of reasons it hasn't worked for me.

Since being on this forum I have learnt stability is the one most important constant with keeping shrimp therefore if my ph has had a huge spike the shrimp will not be happy. I agree they can adapt and have had my cherries in varying ph with mixed success. Cherries are very adaptable but that doesn't mean they are being kept at optimal conditions. I know people put them in straight tap water- I started out with tap water and inert gravel and bred hundreds of Red Cherries no problems but as I got further into the hobby I decided to do this properly for my satisfaction and changed over to RO and added minerals plus shrimp specific soils. I am happy with my setups and what I am doing is right for me. I'm sure if someone came and looked at what I have they would think well her setups are not very interesting, she can't make nice aquascapes etc but this is the way I have chosen to keep my shrimp. If something doesn't work - in this case the sand - then I will change it but other wise it works , the shrimp appear well and breed well. what more is there?

I was told you can have pretty tanks and keep shrimp or you have shrimp breeding tanks- I have taken this advice -as to the not seeing my shrimp that has to do with aging eyesight and lighting not bad shrimp keeping.:)

as to the quartz I have been down that track and changed to shrimp substrate as I actually like the look of it. White substrates are very hard to keep nice. I think all I really need to do is upgrade my lighting:D

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Squiggle

Hahaha & maybe get some new eyes! :smiley_simmons: I was a complete dumbass & put shinny black substrate in for the tank I put my black cherries in & have regretted it ever since. Trying to spot shinny black shrimp on shinny black gravel is not that easy, lol :victorious:

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DeagonTheo

They're your shrimp you can certainly do whatever you like with them, I'm just pointing out that they're not that fussy about water conditions. I'm sure if I had dark colored shrimp on dark substrate I'd be miffed if I couldn't see them and I'd probably want to go to a lighter substrate. I'm just trying to say you should be able to enjoy your fish and have reasonable parameters, you just might have to do some experimenting in a separate tank or container.

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DeagonTheo
Hahaha & maybe get some new eyes! :smiley_simmons: I was a complete dumbass & put shinny black substrate in for the tank I put my black cherries in & have regretted it ever since. Trying to spot shinny black shrimp on shinny black gravel is not that easy' date=' lol :victorious:[/quote']

I've got Tropheus Bemba( orange and black) on shiny black substrate, now they're all black, all I can see are shadows moving around. Rather than change the substrate, I've decided to sell the Bemba, they're going tomorrow.

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ineke

Point taken but I like the easy life it's a bit too much trouble to be conducting water experiments when what I have works. I do however sometimes think we pamper our shrimp a bit too much and the shrimp then can't tolerate big changes which is the reason when we sell on SKF it is always good to put the water parameters up just so those interested can decide if the shrimp are suitable to their tank conditions.

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jayc

I don't think Ineke was intentionally playing around with pH.

The change back to the old substrate was an attempt at keeping pH stable. Since the new sand was increasing it.

I know from reading many forums of people using Bunnings play sand, is that they are not all exactly the same.

Bunnings sources the sand from different places, and some States have inert Silica sand. While some States end up with sand mixed with Calcium Carbonates.

A couple of other observations from reading this thread is that ... while cherry shrimp are very tolerant of water parameters, and pH being high, they still prefer lower pH. Tolerating and surviving isn't the same as thriving and healthy. The shrimp was clearly in distress from reading the first post.

Constantly moving pH up and down isn't good. But neither is keeping fish or shrimp at the wrong pH and not adjusting it. Yes, the fish or shrimp might learn to tolerate it, but as above, it's not thriving.

So move pH as little as possible to the correct pH where fish or shrimp are happiest and healthiest, then keep it constant there.

Calcium Carbonates in the sand will breakdown... eventually. But we are talking many months to years depending on the size of the grain. So riding it out to see if pH will drop eventually is not going to be viable.

A little Calcium and Magnesium in your tank isn't too bad. Calcium is good for shrimp. But you can get that with Calcium Sulphate (rather than Carbonates) that doesn't raise pH. As per this thread http://www.shrimpkeepersforum.com/forum/showthread.php/4404-Why-the-need-for-Calcium-amp-Magnesium

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ineke

thanks Jayc that's it in a nutshell. :D I also slowly reacclimatised my shrimp to the tank once the substrate was changed

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Squiggle
They're your shrimp you can certainly do whatever you like with them' date=' I'm just pointing out that they're not that fussy about water conditions. I'm sure if I had dark colored shrimp on dark substrate I'd be miffed if I couldn't see them and I'd probably want to go to a lighter substrate. I'm just trying to say you should be able to enjoy your fish and have reasonable parameters, you just might have to do some experimenting in a separate tank or container.[/quote']

At the risk of starting as argument I have to dissagree, the high end shrimp that most of us keep are that fussy. Fish on the other hand are completely different & very adaptable to different WP. Shrimp are a completely different scenario, I've been keeping fish for 25yrs & I can do most of it in my sleep & don't even have a second thought when they change their behavior as to what needs doing & 90% of their problems can be resolved by a 20-30% WC but my shrimp take 80% of my time in the shrimp room. When I started keeping them it was like I started from the beginning again & I have to say they require a lot more observation & attention to detail. Even my multiple marine reef tanks that I have had in the past didn't require as much care & attention, just add the trace elements & top up the evaporation, simple compare to the higher end shrimp! Lower quality RCS for example are definitely set & forget. :encouragement:

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Squiggle
I don't think Ineke was intentionally playing around with pH.

The change back to the old substrate was an attempt at keeping pH stable. Since the new sand was increasing it.

I know from reading many forums of people using Bunnings play sand' date=' is that they are not all exactly the same.

Bunnings sources the sand from different places, and some States have inert Silica sand. While some States end up with sand mixed with Calcium Carbonates.

A couple of other observations from reading this thread is that ... while cherry shrimp are very tolerant of water parameters, and pH being high, they still prefer lower pH. Tolerating and surviving isn't the same as thriving and healthy. The shrimp was clearly in distress from reading the first post.

Constantly moving pH up and down isn't good. But neither is keeping fish or shrimp at the wrong pH and not adjusting it. Yes, the fish or shrimp might learn to tolerate it, but as above, it's not thriving.

So move pH as little as possible to the correct pH where fish or shrimp are happiest and healthiest, then keep it constant there.

Calcium Carbonates in the sand will breakdown... eventually. But we are talking many months to years depending on the size of the grain. So riding it out to see if pH will drop eventually is not going to be viable.

A little Calcium and Magnesium in your tank isn't too bad. Calcium is good for shrimp. But you can get that with Calcium Sulphate (rather than Carbonates) that doesn't raise pH. As per this thread [url']http://www.shrimpkeepersforum.com/forum/showthread.php/4404-Why-the-need-for-Calcium-amp-Magnesium

+2 completely agree :encouragement:

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DeagonTheo

I know a Discus breeder who does daily 50% water changes on his Discus fry with cold water straight out of the tap and just adding Prime to the tank. He keeps his Discus at 30 degrees and it doesn't seem to harm them.

The reason he does this is so that when he sells them the fish won't die at the first sign of a change. I've had Discus at 14 degrees and not die and yet all over the net people keep them between 28 and 30 degrees.

People do daily water changes on Discus I do 3 monthly water changes and I don't know what temperature they're in. They come up every day and eat out of my hands, they can't hate me too much.

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DeagonTheo

I completely agree with the high end shrimp being intolerant of extremes, I've had my problems with CRS just by having too much aeration which raised the PH by lowering the CO2 in the water.

But like I said I have yet to kill a cherry shrimp in anything.

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Squiggle
I know a Discus breeder who does daily 50% water changes on his Discus fry with cold water straight out of the tap and just adding Prime to the tank. He keeps his Discus at 30 degrees and it doesn't seem to harm them.

The reason he does this is so that when he sells them the fish won't die at the first sign of a change. I've had Discus at 14 degrees and not die and yet all over the net people keep them between 28 and 30 degrees.

People do daily water changes on Discus I do 3 monthly water changes and I don't know what temperature they're in. They come up every day and eat out of my hands' date=' they can't hate me too much.[/quote']

You can't compare fish & shrimp scenarios, they are completely different animals. :encouragement:

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Squiggle
I have yet to kill a cherry shrimp in anything.

You're a very lucky man. :encouragement:

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DeagonTheo

"You can't compare fish & shrimp scenarios, they are completely different animals."

They both live in water, also I'm not saying that people shouldn't be aware of their water parameters, but in the case of cherries they probably shouldn't stress out too much.

Also I've medicated tanks for whitespot with cherries in them, and it says on the bottle do not use with shrimp, and all the shrimp have lived. I don't do this on purpose, they just happened to be in a tankfull of fish with whitespot, and I was amazed that they lived, yet the same cure killed heaps of my Bristlenose, go figure.

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ineke

I think you are only supposed to use half dosage for BN???

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DeagonTheo
I think you are only supposed to use half dosage for BN???

I wasn't really treating the Bristlenose, they were in the tank, also the directions on the bottle didn't say anything about catfish, just loaches. Needless to say I don't use that stuff anymore, now I use Protozin, expensive but pretty amazing stuff and it doesn't harm catfish.

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Squiggle
They both live in water

Hahaha, that's like saying an elephant & a tiger are the same cause they both live in the jungle. lol :smiley_simmons:

Also, you keep referring to "cherries" as being able to handle anything, are you referring to all Neocaridina Hetropoda/Davidi or just the RCS?

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DeagonTheo

Well see the Elephant and the Tiger both live in the same environment, I suppose I'm referring to RCS and anything off that branch which is not totally inbred.

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Squiggle

Ok, RCS are, as I mentioned, to a large extent, set & forget but there are people who just can't keep or breed them for some reason. I have given RCS to some friends of mine & they are all dead within a week, go figure! :victorious:

Yes the Elephant & the Tiger both breath air but that's where the similarities end, they don't eat the same thing, breed the same way, get the same diseases, require the same treatments, etc. Also, by saying they both live in water is vastly over simplifying the situation. You're an experienced fishkeeper & you know that water on one side of the planet is completely different to water on the other side. :encouragement:

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DeagonTheo

Actually I know that two lakes side by side can have different parameters. I was talking to a guy yesterday who's been breeding fish for years and can't breed Bristlenose, and yet you can give a couple of Bristlenose to a complete noob and within a couple of weeks have fry.

All I'm trying to point out is that you can learn too much in this hobby and do everything by the book and yet others do it with barely any knowledge at all.

I was never game to try to keep Marine fish because of all the stuff I'd read about them. Then one day I thought blow it I'll try it my way.

I got an old two foot tank for my experiment and headed off to Cabbage Tree Creek with a couple of large plastic water containers, there was a storm at the time, I got the water and headed home. I poured it into the tank and it was filthy brown, you couldn't see more than a couple of inches into the water. I put two power filters in the tank and left it for the night. The next day I could see about 4 inches into the water. I then went to Atlas Aquariums and bought a few kilos of live rock and put it in the tank. I checked the parameters, Ammonia and Nitrites were off the scale.

The next morning I woke up and the tank was crystal clear, I checked the parameters Ammonia 0 Nitrites 0. I went back to Atlas and bought a couple of Tomato Clowns and a couple of Humbugs.

A few weeks later these fish bred and I raised three Clowns, the Humbugs I don't know what became of the eggs. I ended up doing much the same with a 3 footer and then just bought some synthetic salt for a six footer. Everything was as low tech as you can get. I kept anenomes and corals and later sold everything and the fish all lived.

Moral of the story, don't believe everything you read.

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Squiggle

I completely agree, some people have the knack & some were just never meant to own any animals......ever! lol. I also agree that you can over think things & ruin stuff by trying to make the "perfect" habitat. I think it's all about finding what works for you & if that means playing Professor Bunsen Honeydew or kickin back & being Lazy McHomer then that's what you need to do. :victorious:

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