Question about Taiwan bees and genetics

[DG17]

Hi all,

While deciding how or If I am setting up my 6 2x1x1.5ft tanks or less I was wondering something about king Kongs pandas and so forth,

ive jumped on the net searching and have only been on this forum for a day!

Basically I wanted to know if I'm going to keep pandas shadow pandas king Kongs blue bolts and red wines should I A) keep each variant in their own tanks or B) are they ok to all go into thesame tanks as I've been told that each will produce a % of each!

If this is true is there a benefit of keeping each variant in its own tanks?

As I'm only keeping TB and CRS/CBS is there any point of keeping each variant of TB seperate or should I just keep TB be in one tank and CRS/CBS in another and just keep 2 seperate tanks for offspring that I don't like??

Sorry if these seem like stupid questions I've kept CRS before with great success but never TAiwan bee variants.

Just need to know so I know if I really need 6 or more tanks basically

thanks any help would be great!!

[CNgo2006]

Mate your questions are far from stupid, and there really is no such thing as stupid question here, as I am sure many will benefit from the answers given as well. In regards to TB's you would have to ask BB or Dean as they have experience keeping those types with great success.

[BlueBolts]

G'day DG17, great question, and the answer is dependable upon your breeding stock and tank no's.

Scenario 1

The hobbyist may purchase 1 x TB and a Mischling to breed to "test the water" and ability to keep/breed TB's. this X will create mischlings. There's several threads on this forum on mischlings that you can refer to.....importantly the 1st step towards TB is to get the bloodline into your colony... Once you've gain confidence and ready for the next step, them you can purchase more TB's.

Scenario 2

The hobbyist may purchase 1 x Pair of TB (perhaps his favourite, bluebolts)... He'll then selective breed them, and perhaps add a female Mischling or CRS/CBS, to again get the bloodline into your colony, whilst hoping the BBxBB as well....

Scenario 3

The hobbyist may purchase a group of mixed TB's and have them all in one tank, including perhaps some Mischling/CRS/CBS, and have them all x breeding between themselves.....once the colony expands, he/she may then wish to segregate them to each individual tanks.

i have my TB's in individual tanks. My breeding tank (x4 tanks) is devoted to KK, WR, BB and Mischling.....although I selectively breed them, I do add 1-3 female mischlings for genetic strengthening.

There's a number of other combinations, just really depends what you like and want to achieve etc.... Just ask away, and perhaps we can assist with your decision...

[northboy]

If you are keeping them because you like them go for it.

If you want to produce good shrimp and sell a few, NO mixing colour varieties, they might be the same shrimp species but are fare removed from each other as far as colour genetics go.

Blood lines take a lot of selective breeding and the last thing you want is to put bad blood in your line, it takes a long time to come back from down graded lines. If you are staying tight like BB said all good

Bob

Clear as mud LOL

[DG17]

Thanks heaps guys,

Bluebolts that's the prob I can't decide what I want to keep I love bluebolts and panda and King Kong..

Would it be wise to set up a breeding tank for TB variants i want to breed eg panda, King Kong and blue bolts and throw in some CBS females in each to make each separate variant stronger then keep a separate tank for lesser quality offspring?

this way I can just set up 4 tanks and not worry about the space needed!

I can understand why we would put CBS/CRS into a tank to strengthen the lines, what I'm not familiar with tho is, when doing so does it matter the grade of the CBS/CRS I use, for eg: is it better to use SS or SSS in a tank with TBs or would using lower grades be better and how does this effect the outcome of the offspring, I've also read not to use snow whites and so forth but can never find out why!

Thanks for all the info guys, I've learned more in the 24hrs I've been on this forum then the last 6months of speaking to people!

[Heavyd]

Bluebolts, wouldn't scenario 1 also create some TB's?

[BlueBolts]

Bluebolts' date=' wouldn't scenario 1 also create some TB's?[/quote']

Potentially yes, but not immediatley, and depends on the TB/Mischling genetic's, there's more success with strengthening the genetics of the mischling, i.e. F2, F3....etc. A last F2 Mishling produced 3 TB's, and the rest were F3 misaligns.....but the majority of my TB's only X breed with it's type...i.e.. KKxKK...etc

For new TB Hobbyist, I'd always recommend getting the TB blood into their program 1st, 1st to prove that they understand WP, TB's etc...before they invest in a colony of them. Obviously if a hobbyist can afford it, then getting 1-2 pairs of each quickens the fun & enjoyment.

Once there's a sustaining TB colony, then you can revert back to X each other, and play with patterns, selective breeding etc.

I'm yet to fully understand this genetic makeup, but there's no grade of say KK, i.e. they're just black, not light grey, dark grey, kinda black etc....ditto on WR too....BB is perhaps different as there's a varying shade of white/blue.

Some of my KK x KK, would produce a perfect WR, and my WR x WR would produce a perfect KK. My last batches of TB's produced 1 of each of the other...i.e. KK x KK, produced 12 KK & 1 WR shrimplets, and my WR x WR, produced 11 WR & 1 KK shrimplet. So the cross genetics of the KK, WR & BB doesn't produce something in between, like the Tibee's. Only exception is perhaps the shadow panda's.....

[Heavyd]

Thanks for the informative response BB.

So to strengthen the genetics of the mischlings, you need to wait for them to breed first? To see what percentage of TB's you get? Then you keep those and remove the ones with the bad percentages?

[BlueBolts]

My breeding program focus's more on TBxTB's, although I do have a HUGE colony of Mischling's that I had used initially. I do X back the mischling to the TB's but only as a token %. So this table is really just an indicative # and % to demonstrate how the F generation theoritically works......theoritically because there are other genetical factors on the TB's side ....i.e. if the TB was generated via a F2, it's genetical TB quality isn't theoriticaly 100% pure. So genetically, at say F3, crossing it with a miscalling, may give you a 10% TB rate, rather then 30% ..... this is why I selectively breed each TB separately.... I don't like surprises. LOL

TB x CRS/CBS = 100% Mischling (F1)

TB x F1 Mischling = 100% Mischling (F2)

TB x F2 Mischling = 10% TB and 90% Mischling (F3)

TB x F3 Mischling = 30% TB and 70% Mischling (F4)

TB x F4 Mischling = 50% TB and 50% Mischling (F5)

TB x F5 Mischling = 75% TB and 25% Mischling (F6)

Again, the % is indicative ONLY, just to show the genetic strength.....

[BlueBolts]

BTW - I can breed them, but I'm no genetical/scientific guru......perhaps Dean or shrimpsider or other international members can elaborate ?

[CNgo2006]

Hey BB if I were to breed mischling x mischling for a few gens would they ever produce any TB's?

[BlueBolts]

Hey BB if I were to breed mischling x mischling for a few gens would they ever produce any TB's?

I don't think so......stranger and unexplained things do happen genetically, but unlikely .....

[Heavyd]

My breeding program focus's more on TBxTB's' date=' although I do have a HUGE colony of Mischling's that I had used initially. I do X back the mischling to the TB's but only as a token %. So this table is really just an indicative # and % to demonstrate how the F generation theoritically works......theoritically because there are other genetical factors on the TB's side ....i.e. if the TB was generated via a F2, it's genetical TB quality isn't theoriticaly 100% pure. So genetically, at say F3, crossing it with a miscalling, may give you a 10% TB rate, rather then 30% ..... this is why I selectively breed each TB separately.... I don't like surprises. LOL

TB x CRS/CBS = 100% Mischling (F1)

TB x F1 Mischling = 100% Mischling (F2)

TB x F2 Mischling = 10% TB and 90% Mischling (F3)

TB x F3 Mischling = 30% TB and 70% Mischling (F4)

TB x F4 Mischling = 50% TB and 50% Mischling (F5)

TB x F5 Mischling = 75% TB and 25% Mischling (F6)

Again, the % is indicative ONLY, just to show the genetic strength.....[/quote']

Thanks for an excellent response! That is a very clear explanation of how it works.

Cheers,

D

[DG17]

BB thanks for the explanation mate!! Looks like ill be tracking down a few pairs of each once my tank processes properly!!

[mickeyG]

Bb that's a great way to explain days of reading on the net hehe. Great to see we can pick your brains on this subject as I'm sure a few of us will be getting into tbs this year!!!

[Dead Can Dance]

Is the birth rate much less for TB's than cherries / CRS ?

[CNgo2006]

this is why I selectively breed each TB separately.... I don't like surprises. LOL

So how does BB prepare a surprise party for someone?

He texts them the details beforehand. LOL!

[Squiggle]

Very interesting write up BB, makes breeding TB's a hell of a lot clearer, I'll definitely be hitting you up for info when I'm stuck :encouragement: