Clown loaches

[ineke]

I have two clown loaches in a 200 litre with lots of caves etc. I feed a variety of fish foods daily plus frozen blood worms daily. Two night ago they were making their clicking noises much more loudly and frequently than usual . Yesterday one was not seen then I noticed it zoomed out of the tail end of a plane wreck ornament but quickly went back in. Today it was again just visible inside the plane. It came out for its worms and I saw what I thought were eggs - they looked a bit like sesame seeds- then it went straight back into the plane. The only other noticeable thing was that the fins anal fins were quite orange/red.

There is not much info about them breeding on the net so it seems unlikely , I also know they eat their eggs. Anyone have any idea, could his be a breeding pair- they have different body shape and markings- their behaviour is unusual for them, they are usually out and about clicking away happily. Don't ask about water conditions I never check their tank. The water that goes in has a PH 7.4 and comes out of a pura tap. I do a 20% water change weekly and recently did a 50% water change- about 2 weeks ago. I have a mixture of live and plastic plants. It is purely an ornamental community tank. Any thoughts anyone?

[ninja]

Water change could have induced a spawning!

[Wraithie]

It is very rare for them to breed in captivity so pretty much all clowns for sale are wild caught and imported. Very exciting if you have them breeding though, try some more spying.

[fishmosy]

How big are your clown loaches? Apparently they need to be pretty big (ie >20cm) before they start spawning.

[ineke]

I thought the water change may have induced spawning , certainly the Corys spawned but the eggs always get eaten before I can get them just the outline left where they were. I know it's very unlikely they spawned but it has happened. I would agree these were probably wild caught they were extremely skittish and very skinny when I got them about 4 Months ago. I only got them because I like them and have never had them before. I feed the frozen bloodworms daily because I read that was a good way to get some condition on them being that they were so skinny. I don't actually want to breed them but you should have heard the noise they made a couple of nights ago I thought there were stones being thrown at my window but it was them clicking and they had also stirred the gravel up as the water was a bit cloudy in the morning- I have ADA under the gravel for my sword plant. All very interesting just hope the behaviour change is due to mating and not due to ill health- the hiding in the plane- will see how they are in the morning will update if anything interesting occurs.

[2OFUS]

Clown loaches live 25+ years

they don't start breeding until they are 8+ years

They have never been bred in captivity

[ineke]

Fishmosy they are about 15cm give or take a cm or two. Until two days ago they were active and playful eating extremely well. I have a feeling a couple of neons have disappeared over the last week and no sign of any bodies and although I have some angels in there I have never seen them chase the smaller fish. Also the Endlers have just had two lots of babies so lots of live food been in the tank, plus snails and some cull shrimp although they were still in there when I did the big water change.

[ineke]

Clown loaches live 25+ years

they don't start breeding until they are 8+ years

They have never been bred in captivity

I have read that they have sometime ago. Yes I think mine are too small but then being wild caught who knows how old they are. I don't really think they did spawn but the fish in the plane was definitely sitting on small white sesame seed shaped "things" . Have no idea what they are I haven't put anything like that in the tank.

[fishmosy]

Its certainly possible that they might have spawned given what you've said and live food is always a HUGE help in getting fish to spawn. Best of luck, fingers crossed you find a tiny clown appear in a few weeks or months.

[fishmosy]

Clown loaches live 25+ years

they don't start breeding until they are 8+ years

They have never been bred in captivity

I've come across reports of spawnings, and reports of artificial breeding via hormone injection.

15cm suggests these loaches have some age, possibly 8+, especially if they have always been in the 200L.

[ineke]

Thanks Fishmosy but unless the parents look after them I would think they would get eaten before they had a chance to get very big but stranger things can happen:encouragement:

[fishmosy]

Thats right stranger things have happened. Its funny how little fish can hide and suddenly 'appear' in your tank once they feel they are big enough to venture into the open.

[ineke]

I saved a few eggs from a Corys spawn and put them in the shrimp tank , they were on the thermometer so I just took it out and put it in the tank. A few days later despite a dip in anti fungus cure they looked like they were covered in fungus, I decided to take it out and as I did one little fish kicked itself out of an egg. I was sure it wouldn't survive and yet a few weeks later despite my constant shrimp staring I suddenly noticed a fully formed bronze Cory. I was amazed because I had been glued to that tank my first shrimp tank and never saw it nor did I feed for a baby fish.

[Loach]

People have gotten them to spawn but the babies/eggs never survive in home aquarium. Im pretty sure one guy claims to have bred his own but his were 30cm plus and even that has no evidence behind it...

[ineke]

I really don't mind if they haven't bred it was more the change in behaviour that made me ask the question. My main concern is if there is something wrong. No doubt if its a health issue I may find out today .

[KiwiBigD]

There have been a couple of reports of them breeding - http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/cyprinids-atherinids/clown-loach-breeding-documentary-8962/.

However the original reason why they didn't breed, at least when I lived in England was that there were only males being shipped. Not sure how true this is though but for a while there were reports of hormones being used in both China and Russia, plus of course the fish have to be a good size before they can breed and how many keepers have fish that are 10+ years old? Also at that age they need a HUGE tank, absolutely love Clown Loaches and would love to keep but even a 400L tank is considered too small for a group of say a dozen adults.

There used to be a keeper in West London that I remember seeing a tank of around 2100 litres in his lounge, he had a small group of 7 or 8 but they were all in excess of 25cms along with a school of silver sharks of a similar size. Really beautiful to watch but at night the clicking was really loud!

All you can Ineke is try, lots of green water if possible and see what happens. Does indicate though that you have a pair, thats often the hardest part

[ineke]

I am doubting the spawning now. The loach in the plane was out for a short period and I couldn't see anything in the tail where it had been however it quickly came back in and seemed very busy wagging its body then sat still . The other loach stayed outside but was doing the same wagging motion.

However reading the breeding report my water is way too high in PH and TDS is sky high , I believe Adelaide water is fairly hard so it's all completely opposite to what others say is optimum. I just hope it isn't ill and that's why the strange behaviour. They aren't clicking at the moment either. Will just continue to observe them and hope for the best. I only have the two because my tank is not big enough to support a colony of them so if this one is sick the other one won't have a mate. They don't like to be on their own and I wasn't going to replace any lost fish so I can turn the tank into a shrimp multi type show tank.

[ineke]

Well I'm completely stumped by the behaviour of this fish it came out at feeding time- blood worms- ate its share coming to feed out of my hand as usual then went back to its hiding place. The other loach was fine with it I thought maybe they were fighting but all was well. Obviously it likes the tight fitting cubby hole .:encouragement:

[northboy]

Ineke when I worked for a very big wholesaler, I use to open up any large Clowns lost, to find very few males and lots more females, there is a distinguishing feature in mature animals. The back of the tail in the fork of males is serrated or raggard compared to females and females were deeper in the body.

That may help a bit and talking to a breeder in Indonesia it was a huge drop in temp with hormones that did it for Hers, but she did not raise any.

I also spotted a batch of longfin Clowns come through one time, they were 5cm fish and every one in one bag had long fins??

Bob

[northboy]

OH meant to say there was 15cm fish with gonads developed.

Get yourself a hydrophone and record them at next big water change, I have a recording of Forktail Catfish breeding and the grunts and clicks are incredible.

Bob

[ineke]

Thanks Bob I haven't noticed any difference in tails but one is now much bigger than the other. As I. Mentioned earlier it was the noise three night ago now that alerted me to the different behaviour I really thought someone was throwing pebbles at the windows but when I went to look it was coming from the tank. Also it was shortly after 50% water change which would have lowered the temp. Still not convinced they spawned but it may have been courtship behaviour?

[northboy]

Its a start,

All successful and commercial breeders keep a single species pr tank for breeding and most separate sexes for conditioning , that way stress of other fish eating eggs as well as courtship interruption won't happen. The single species pr tank is without exception (Cichlid breeder don't count, Cichlids are easy to breed)

I have seen a mass spawning of Hong Kong Plecos = Borneo suckers in Quarantine so unfortunately the eggs could not be taken, they spawned the NIGHT they came in ( night spawning like Clowns), all that happened was, they went into a tank at least 10c cooler and maybe colder, it was mid winter in Brisbane and the tank was filled 10 minutes before they went in, it was so cold the front was frosted as in wet from the temp difference, in Quarantine there is no acclimatisation its tipped from the bag into a net and carried to their tank and dumped in, its the rules.

So it was a thermal shock that got them going and thermal shock works for a number of species but most Aquarium keepers are conditioned to be scared of it for fear of White spot, in good quality water fish won't get white spot, with Ammonia or NO2 or NO3 at unacceptable levels as well as a thermal shock White spot is a problem. I have proved it many times and lots of hatcheries do it regularly, it is not recommended until you gain the experience in controlling and maintaining GOOD water conditions as well as lots of water changes, Had to put that to cover my butt.

Its hard to put in words the right way, but thermal shock by 12c is one of the triggers I will be using for a number of species in the future. May be I should delete all that?

Bob

[ineke]

No you covered your butt quite well! I am not really interested in getting them to breed as I don't have spare tanks and no I don't want more fish tanks. Whatever happens will happen. It may seem a shame if they are a breeding pair but I'm still not convinced and don't want to try and post them off to anyone as I don't have access to oxygen or bags big enough. If I find they do want to breed I might offer them to someone local or just leave them to it. I will eventually have to let them go because the tank won't be big enough as they get older.

[northboy]

If you got rid of them to someone else they may never act up again, I have seen that a number of times breeding pairs sold that never breed again and the reverse is true to, pairs that have never bred moved and they breed there heads off.

That comes down to a number of factors like Sunlight orientation, movement or lack of it by humans around the house, Moonlight on the tank can have a huge effect on nocturnal breeders, most night spawners spawn on the dark of the moon.

It is a whole new world when you look through Science eyes, I had and have loads of help with that one.

I will stop there Ineke it gets long and drawn out, but its dam interesting.

[ineke]

Actually very interesting points you have made. The tank has been moved and is only disturbed at feeding time- it's in a corner no one can walk past it. The window now is next to the tank and although no direct sun it is bright, at night the curtains are often left open so moonlight , early morning light etc everything is like nature. We rarely use that room at night so tank light out is lights out. I might just for interest do some water tests but I'm pretty sure it's way out of their preferred water conditions