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TotalNewb

Switching JBL Manado for ADA Amazonia in existing tank

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TotalNewb

Hi, 

I have a tank that is set up about 2 months (50L) - I had just Cherries in it with JBL Manado which was fine but then I wanted to switch it to RCS

Only problem was my PH is 8 from the tap. I put Indian Almond Leaves, Peat Moss AND lots of Alder cones in before i put the RCS in but the PH only went down to 7.4. Also turning my water into Tea!

So last week I bought some ADA Amozonia and I want to switch it in. I have it in a bucket in the shed cycling to release the Ammonia since last weekend, with 100% water changes everyday and a small DIY filter running to try and clear it up because there is a LOT of dirt in the water from it. 

 

My question is... what do you suggest for putting it into the tank when the ammonia has gone down ( hoping by this weekend!). I have about 30 + shrimps in there with a few shrimplets, but I also have about 100 2 week old Cory fry in it while they mature enough to go into the community tank. 

Has anyone any suggestions? I was thinking of just doing small section by section, moving the substrate and using a bottle to pour in the ADA gently, and then hopefully I will be able to siphon out the Manado with a Turkey baster from the last section... there will be two of us doing it to prevent baby losses ...

 

I don't want to move them all out while I do it as I did this a few months ago while re-scapping my Community tank and I lost a 1/4 of my stock. 

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sdlTBfanUK

I have not done a change of substrate but did ask some questions later on in this feed, specifically re JBL so it may be of some interest.

I am assuming you are wanting to try Crystal Red Shrimp as you have already got Cherries, which are RCS I think? It took me years to get the letters round the right way?

I have the substrate in a tank with Cherry shrimp and it hasn't been changed in 5 years (from new) and everything is fine (even the plants grow out of control) but the tap water is PH7.

IF you are going the Zerowater route you will probably find the filtered water is a lower PH anyway (PH6 once filtered for me from PH7) so the substrate may not need to alter the PH much, or even at all - but you should get someone elses comments about how this works as I know little about this aspect and am still in the 'experimental long term' with this new water method and its effect on the substrate specifically.

Hope this may be of some help?

Simon

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TotalNewb

@sdlTBfanUK Thanks, yes I mean CRS ( faceplant! ). I'm not sure if I'll get the Zerowater yet, I'll see how the ADA works first. 

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sdlTBfanUK

I won't keep on bothering you but it appears that you are going the route I initially went, trying to just use tap water and letting the substrate/other stuff reduce the PH, you may want to read the article of mine again. For years I tried this and it never worked, whatever I tried and I gave up. From what someone on here has told me in reply to one of my questions about substrate, if your PH is as high as 8 the substrate won't be able to buffer very long. If the water you put in the tank has a PH6 to start with, the substrate, I assume has less work to do and should then last longer (correct me if I am wrong someone)?

Others on here have tried Rainwater and Well water and that may be an option, depends if you get enough rain so that is a bit hit and miss? 

The long and short of the post I did about tap water though is that even if tap water has perfect parameters (as mine does) it just didn't work here! I have read a few articles about this and from what I read (and  it makes sense), you don't know what is in tap water that makes the parameter numbers ideal, and it can change at the water company's whim etc, repairs etc, source reservoir etc. The best route if this is right seems to be (and it worked for me) is to get the water back to pure (RO or alternative) and then remineralise it (the products are specially designed to give the shrimps what they need after all). Caridina shrimp are MUCH harder to  keep than Cherry's, my cherry's are in tap water and very neglected now I have mastered the Taiwan bees but the cherry's just keep on going without problems. Another way of putting it would be, if you do it properly from the start (no short cuts), in the long run you will save a lot of money and heartache, my failed experimenting with tap water (I tried Brita filter and others, only zerowater has worked for me) must have wasted £500 over the years and caused much disappointment which was why I gave up for a year!

Hope it all works out for you!

Simon

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TotalNewb

@sdlTBfanUK Thanks. Yes, I am just using tap water at the moment. I can't use rainwater even though we have an abundance of it here in Ireland! :) But the PH of the rain water is 9!!!  I got some PH lowering lemon mix for quariums last night from my fathers stash... would that work in the meantime? The RO water / zerowater system is going to have to wait until after Christmas 😞 And if I use it what is a safe level to lower the PH by each day without cusing shock / stress?

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sdlTBfanUK

They don't call it the emerald isle for nothing??

I keep looking at the original posting, have you got Crystal shrimp in there yet, or just the Cherries? It is possible I believe to mix them in a tank but they have different water parameter requirements.

I don't know if the lemon stuff will work, but if you have livestock, especially shrimp you will need to adjust it VERY gradually. I sympathize with what you are doing but I have tried it that way and as previously said, I think you are just making it too difficult and likely in the long term you will have many disappointments and be poorer, as I was, us old fogeys call it 'A False economy'. Even if you get the parameters right now (and those are just numbers, just because my TDS was 174,(perfect) it didn't work as I don't know what makes up that figure), if you later want to change to different water you will be starting a fresh.

It makes a lot more sense (especially if you haven't got the crystal shrimp yet) to Start as you mean to continue as shrimp, especially caridina are very sensitive and need stable conditions. If you don't want to spend out for RO system (or zerowater/other) presently you can usually just buy RO water from an aquarium shop until you are ready.

I had a quick look on Zerowater website and it 'claims' the water is the same as RO water if you look in the FAQ section, and if you have a 50L tank (mine is 35L and I use 3L per week top up and water change) you would be best getting the 5L container one £50 (one off cost) and seeing if that works sufficiently with your water (TDS,PH,GH,KH etc), and if it does get spare filters (4 for £50, probably do at least a year, I think postage is included so there is no penalty by splitting the order that way so makes more sense to TRY before committing to too much in one order), much cheaper than the RO unit you mentioned and no plumbing required. You will then also need to get some remineraliser, I use dennerle as it is drops so couldn't be any easier.

As you are based in Ireland any shrimp special products can be got from www.pro-shrimp.co.uk if you don't already have a supplier. I (and friends) have used them for years, they are the best in this country by far.

Sometimes you have to learn by your owns mistakes,  but hopefully it will work out for you. You could always put it off until after xmas, by then the baby fish  won't be part of the tank as I assume they will mostly be going in another tank.

Simon

PS, disclaimer, I have no affiliation or interest in Zerowater.................

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TotalNewb

the CRS as already in the tank but the RCS have been moved out to another tank in the shed. They all seem happy but the CRS are still young. I will defiantly look into the Zerowater system after Christmas, but for now will have to plod along this weekend - I'm thinking of just adding the ADA on top of the JBL Manado so I don't disturb the fry too much, small amounts at a time ... fingers crossed!

 

Oh and yeah, the cory fry will hopefully be ready for the community tank by Christmas 

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sdlTBfanUK

Good luck this weekend, you can always remove some of the old soil before putting the new in. It will be messy but if you have enough filters it should clear by just cleaning those every few hours. As long as you do it (in and out) gently and very slowly the shrimps will (in my limited experience anyway) move out of the way, they can shift when they want to, and actually like the disturbance as it must uncover stuff they eat!

As for the Crystal shrimp, if its working ok as is then just carry on as is for now, and keep your fingers crossed until you decide on a more stable long term solution. May be better to leave it for now rather than alter it now and then alter it again after xmas, especially if the shrimps are happy enough.

Anyway, hope it all goes well this weekend.

Simon

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jayc
12 hours ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

have read a few articles about this and from what I read (and  it makes sense),

Hmm, sounds like an interesting article.

 

 

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jayc
12 hours ago, TotalNewb said:

@sdlTBfanUK Thanks. Yes, I am just using tap water at the moment. I can't use rainwater even though we have an abundance of it here in Ireland! :) But the PH of the rain water is 9!!!  I got some PH lowering lemon mix for quariums last night from my fathers stash... would that work in the meantime? The RO water / zerowater system is going to have to wait until after Christmas 😞 And if I use it what is a safe level to lower the PH by each day without cusing shock / stress?

I was going to stay out of this convo, as Simon is doing a great job in dishing out the advice. But pH 9 !! Rainwater?!!!

I have heard of acid rain, but not alkaline rain before.

That is such hard water, I'm surprised it does crack roof tiles as it rains.

You must live in an area with an abundance of limestone.

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sdlTBfanUK

Maybe that is why the Australians call us 'LIMEYS' - I believe that is where it comes from?

Believe me I have done ridiculous amounts of reading over the years as I am housebound so get very bored, you probably may have worked that out by the long replies etc. There were probably half a dozen shrimp websites over the years that have mention of TDS and 'what is it?' that is making up that figure (If I can re-find some I will link it) and certainly from my passed experience as in my Tapwater initial post, the water parameter figures were perfect from my tap water alone so was always at a loss? Since using the equivalent (I won't keep plugging the product) of RO water (remineralised) I have had not 1 problem in the year since I started up again, quite the reverse and as already mentioned in posts elsewhere am at the culling some stage to keep the numbers reasonable.

I think I even read the same about GH somewhere, ie it measures 2 things, can't remember what they are, but it could be one at 0% and one at 100% if that is the case, and the shrimp may need one more than the other, or both and there may only be one????? This I assume is the same with TDS, what is it that it is picking up and is it the right stuff you want?????

Going back to filtered/RO water and then adding specially formulated for Shrimp remineralisers I have the same parameters as tap water (near enough) here so I don't think it can be anything else? Obviously the producers of the products want you to use those products but has anyone ever had a problem caused by 'the correct' use of one of these (Shrimp specially formulated) remineralisers, if they have I haven't read about it and as mentioned I have spent a lot of time trawling through the internet about this issue?

Always keen to learn new stuff though, if anyone thinks I am missing something let me know, I'm no expert on this.

Here I go, waffling again, sorry about that, but as this was such a headache for me for many years that I even gave up for a year it is something important to me! I will always welcome others views though, even if it is just to tell me to stop waffling!

Simon 

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kd0603

T.d.s are inorganic salts in your water, basically calcium, chlorides ,sulphates,sodium bicarbonates ,magnesium and potassium that are put into drinking water , im pretty sure that if you just keep topping up your tanks , due to evaporation and not doing water changes that over time the tds numbers will rise , lime scale on the glass of your tank is a result of tds in your water 

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sdlTBfanUK

Thanks for the reply. I may not have got down in writing what was going on in my head, quite possible....... but what you seem to be saying appears to confirm what was going through my head. ?????

I have tap water of TDS 174 which has unknown proportions (and may not have all of them) of the VARIOUS salts and other things etc you list. When I filter the water back to zero TDS and then add the shrimp products to get TDS 163 (at present), the 'on paper' figures are very close, but what is in the 2 waters can be wildly different, with the one made specifically for shrimps having different proportions/quantities biased towards that of shrimps needs. Whatever is in the tap water 'on paper' figure is almost identical but must have different proportions of the different things you list and therefore isn't suited to the Caridina shrimp but more Human biased obviously. My tap water is sufficient though for cherry shrimps.

The same I assume is related to GH, which is Calcium and Magnesium (hope that is right?), The shrimp remineralising products must have the perfect proportions of both, whereas without knowing what is in the tap water it probably is unlikely to suit the shrimps, it could be 100% Calcium      0% Magesium , or reverse, or more likely an unknown split between each? Therefore you could have the perfect GH figure but still not have the required balance.

On this forum in the past  (I have been doing a lot of reading of older stuff on here) there have been many old posts where people seem to get one or other of TDS or GH out of sync with the other, as indeed I did by not using the remineraliser and zerowater from tank setup, I just used (Brita filtered) tap water as the TDS looked close while I cycled the tank, but then to get it right when I wanted to put the shrimp in the tank meant many large water changes basically to empty as much of the (Brita filtered) tap water and replace it with the remineralised zerowater in order to get the GH up (from 3 to now 4.5 and that will very gradually increase with weekly water change to 5 or 6 max. but as it is about 7% each week it will be a long slow process), but the TDS was right 'on paper' at all times.

If the base water doesn't start at GH0 and TDS000 it will be out of kilter if you use a product which adds 1GH and 20-25TDS per drop (or scoop) per litre (rough figures based on the one I use (dennerle)). But if you want GH5-6 and TDS 150 and you use the remineraliser you need to start with both inline with those proportions. If you have base water of TDS 90, GH1 to start with it won't equate when adding premixed remineralisers - trust me, I used to be an accountant!

BY FAR THE EASIEST THING TO DO IS TAKE IT BACK TO ZERO FOR EVERYTHING FROM THE START AND REMINERALISE WITH SPECIALIST PRODUCTS.

I hope this makes sense to anyone reading it as I understand it in my own head but may not be getting it down on paper properly, added to the fact I am getting a headache as I am not used to thinking this much on a sunday whilst watching Judge Judy on TV...............

Simon

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Zoidburg

If you want CRS that were raised in "Caridina" parameters, then you need a completely different setup for them and you can't use tap water. Your CRS might "live", but they might not thrive until you get the tank set up "correctly" for them.

This means a buffering substrate to lower the pH, RO/Distilled water (don't know if you can buy it in stores where you are at... but I can buy 1 gallon for 33-50 cents here) to have 0 ammonia, nitrites and nitrates with 0 GH and 0 KH with 5 or less TDS. You then remineralize the water with GH only minerals until you get the GH into the desired levels for the shrimp you are keeping.

 

The way that buffering substrates work is to remove KH from the water (KH helps to keep the pH stable) and release tannins, humic acid and/or fulvic acid into the water column. This lowers the pH and keeps it stable. The more KH that is in your water, the harder the soil has to work to remove it and buffer your pH down. Each time you do a water change, you are causing unstable water parameters. The more work the soil has to do to do this, the faster your substrate will wear out and lose it's buffering capacities. (this is what Simon was referring to) If the water has 0 KH to begin with, it doesn't have to work hard, keeps pH low and stable, and it lasts longer.

 

Buffering substrates where tap water is used may only last 3-10 months... depending on how good the soil is and how much KH is in the water.

Buffering substrates where RO water and GH minerals are used may last 10 months to 5 years... again, depending on soil. At 1-3 years, you'd want to replace most soil anyway as that's about the time where the shrimp may stop breeding and the soil becomes less likely to buffer down. (exhausted the acids in it to keep the pH down?)

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sdlTBfanUK
14 hours ago, Zoidburg said:

If you want CRS that were raised in "Caridina" parameters, then you need a completely different setup for them and you can't use tap water. Your CRS might "live", but they might not thrive until you get the tank set up "correctly" for them.

This means a buffering substrate to lower the pH, RO/Distilled water (don't know if you can buy it in stores where you are at... but I can buy 1 gallon for 33-50 cents here) to have 0 ammonia, nitrites and nitrates with 0 GH and 0 KH with 5 or less TDS. You then remineralize the water with GH only minerals until you get the GH into the desired levels for the shrimp you are keeping.

 

The way that buffering substrates work is to remove KH from the water (KH helps to keep the pH stable) and release tannins, humic acid and/or fulvic acid into the water column. This lowers the pH and keeps it stable. The more KH that is in your water, the harder the soil has to work to remove it and buffer your pH down. Each time you do a water change, you are causing unstable water parameters. The more work the soil has to do to do this, the faster your substrate will wear out and lose it's buffering capacities. (this is what Simon was referring to) If the water has 0 KH to begin with, it doesn't have to work hard, keeps pH low and stable, and it lasts longer.

 

Buffering substrates where tap water is used may only last 3-10 months... depending on how good the soil is and how much KH is in the water.

Buffering substrates where RO water and GH minerals are used may last 10 months to 5 years... again, depending on soil. At 1-3 years, you'd want to replace most soil anyway as that's about the time where the shrimp may stop breeding and the soil becomes less likely to buffer down. (exhausted the acids in it to keep the pH down?)

Your posting is a lot clearer than mine, thanks for posting it, I think I may have gone off the original posting at a bit of a tangent. Hopefully the original poster will read your reply!

Does the part about my tap water tds 174 and ro water + remineraliser tds 163 can, and probably always are, more different than just the tds difference of 11 would show. and just because the figure is correct on paper doesn't mean what substances make that figure what it is, is appropriate for the shrimps etc? I just don't know whether I am getting across what  I mean, and more importantly am I right, does it make any sense??

Someone put me out of my insanity with a reply !

 

Edited by sdlTBfanUK
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Zoidburg

Yes, Simon. If by using RO/Distilled (or, as you have, "Zerowater"), you know exactly what is in your water when you add minerals back in.

 

Tap water could have chlorine, chloramines, pesticides, flouride, copper, fertilizers or who knows what else. You can get the water tested to know exactly what's in it, but you're kind of better off just going the RO route and not having to question if the tap changes due to seasons or whatever chemicals are used or what have you. Even if you are living on a well, it's not guaranteed better than city water  because it could still fluctuate or get contaminated by something. One person mentioned that they lived on a farm and had well water. Neighbor up the way used fertilizers or something on their property. It contaminated the water system and their tank crashed...

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sdlTBfanUK
11 hours ago, Zoidburg said:

Yes, Simon. If by using RO/Distilled (or, as you have, "Zerowater"), you know exactly what is in your water when you add minerals back in.

 

Tap water could have chlorine, chloramines, pesticides, flouride, copper, fertilizers or who knows what else. You can get the water tested to know exactly what's in it, but you're kind of better off just going the RO route and not having to question if the tap changes due to seasons or whatever chemicals are used or what have you. Even if you are living on a well, it's not guaranteed better than city water  because it could still fluctuate or get contaminated by something. One person mentioned that they lived on a farm and had well water. Neighbor up the way used fertilizers or something on their property. It contaminated the water system and their tank crashed...

Thanks for that, your wording is better than mine by far, you got to the point,  but I was pleased you confirmed what is my experience and understanding. Thank you zoidburg!

Simon

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