Live fish food

[jayc]

3 hours ago, s1l3nt said:

I want them here! More live foods!!

Let's open an LFS that sells all the stuff that people are shouting for but cannot find in traditional LFS.

 

3 hours ago, s1l3nt said:

Sorry about no article guys, been super busy all week. Will get to it this weekend for sure, promise!

WHAT !??!!

joking. ?

 

I've got projects that have been going for 2 years. Building a new aquarium stand. I've got all the parts, but have been super busy and lazy to put the hard work in for the last stretch.

[s1l3nt]

Haha. yeah i've got heaps of those projects :) Wife hates them, but they'll get done at some point ;) hahaha.

As for the things people want but can't find, if i could source I would sell them to everyone haha. That is the problem though, sourcing seems impossible haha.

[tigger]

OK ....sourced a place that does all kinds of cultures ....SOUTHERN BIOLOGICAL ph 397533896 and they are at 1/44 Rushdale st. Knox field,vic 3180 .....Google Southern Biological and they have the prices and culturing methods for lots of foods....BUT...they ain't cheap lol...around $20 for most cultures even paramecium and vinegar eels,around $2.00 a cockroach and even  $23 for a little bottle of  "pondwater" with "various" protozoans in it. Wingless and winged fruitfly,meal worms silkworm eggs ,brine shrimp eggs, daphnia, rotifers,etc.....Couldn't see micro worms,white worms or grindles strangely enough....

[jayc]

Okkkaaayyyy. So I have a question ...

My Microworm culture has now turned to what looks like a soupy cream coloured mix.

The question is, can you top it up with fresh bread/milk/yeast mix? let's call this the culture media.

Is it a bad idea topping up culture media in a 1 week old Microworm culture?

I have a 2nd batch going, so that is not the question. I'd like to know specifically for the old culture. 

 

With Vinegar eels, I've read that you need to top up the Apple cider vinegar every so often. But thought I would check with the experts for Microworms before I did it.

 

Lastly, 

I have an experiment going with my Microworm culture. I don't want to let out what it is yet, not until I see if it works.

[s1l3nt]

@jayc That is what I do :) I leave them in the soup for a day or two (mostly because im lazy) and chuck another slice of bread on top. (using same method I used to start the culture). Then just place it on top and let them go nuts on it. can usually do this 1-3 times before culture goes off and I start a new one with a good chunk of worms (this way i can harvest 24 hours later).

Is your secret feeding fish food? :P I've done it with foods and spirulina, hard to tell if they actually ever ate it. They did go green from the spirulina though :) I didn't notice any benefits myself.

Also not sure abuot the question on VE, but it makes sense to top up. It does slowly evaporate I guess. I never bothered and had no issues though. Its easy enough to start new cultures once you've got multiples, so meh. :)

 

@tigger - I've seen southern before, but they are ridiculously priced. 40 daphnia for $20? Thats 50cents each! That is just gouging. Everything else was meh and the stuff I wanted was obtainable from hobbyists that didtn want 50 cents a daphnia ... lol. There was another place selling grindals ,etc for about $10 a starter. But i can't seem to find them anymore....

[tigger]

Yep ,ya can top up a culture,I often do it with a culture that's on its last legs.....easiest way I have found to do the top up is to just crumble up an oatbix or weetbix,drizzle in a little water till its of a nice stodgy consistency, sprinkle of yeast on top then just leave and the worms will make their way to the surface. Whats this experiment?...Tell us NOW!!! ?....My latest experiment is to mash in ripe banana with the oatmeal and see how that goes......this is no too wild as they culture banana worms this way so don't see why micros would not like a bit o fruit.

 

[jayc]

4 hours ago, s1l3nt said:

I've done it with foods and spirulina,

Ahh bugger.

you guessed it, sort of.

Not spirulina but I'm using chlorella. Thought I was being clever, but I see everyone has done it before ?

I'm keeping my killi fry in an all white old ice cream tub. The worms just blend in and go invisible with all the white of the tub. The fry miss eating quite a few of the worms.

My reasoning here is if I gut load them with some chlorella, the fish can easily spot them, plus some chlorella is surely going to be good for them. Chlorella is a bit more potent than spirulina.

 

Thanks for confirming I can top up the culture media @s1l3nt and @tigger

Edited October 21, 2016 by jayc

[s1l3nt]

I think your reasoning is fine, keep it up if your willing i say! :) I don't use micr oworms to long or much at all so it wasnt too beneficial to me. Spirulina is $$$ haha.

[tigger]

JC..How about leaving the worms white and putting the fry into a black/blue/green/red bucket so the worms show up better on the dark background of the bucket?

 

[Kaylenna]

Ahhh... I love knowing I'm not the only nutty one... 

I hadn't thought to try fruit, although it more or less should work because fruit does have sugar and will grow yeast just fine (as vintners will happily tell you).  You may get fruit flies though... or at least their larva... which I'm sure you'll just feed to your fish as well.

4 hours ago, jayc said:

I'm keeping my killi fry in an all white old ice cream tub.

You know... it might be easier/cheaper to buy a different colored tub of ice cream.  I did specifically pick a dark colored tub for the grindal culture for just that reason - I wanted to be able to SEE them.

 

5 hours ago, s1l3nt said:

They did go green from the spirulina though :)

Ahahaha... I have to try that... just to see green worms.  Although the idea of gutloading is common for other similar live food cultures, might as well do it for the fishies.

 

22 hours ago, tigger said:

.BUT...they ain't cheap lol...

Yeah... companies selling primarily to labs and schools always charge out the wazoo - I suppose they think the buyers aren't spending their own money so they can crank up the prices.  

Ideally, if enough of US keep cultures, we can just supply each other (such is my ulterior motive).  Our own not-always-so-local live fish food shop!

And thanks for the vinegar eels jc12.

[jayc]

14 minutes ago, tigger said:

How about leaving the worms white and putting the fry into a black/blue/green/red bucket so the worms show up better on the dark background of the bucket?

Yes, that would be logical, and a simple solution.

But I've tried it, and I find the fry blend into the dark bucket and get missed too easily.

Especially when I am changing water in the bucket. Water changes for fry is a daily chore. So if I don't see the fry, it either gets sucked up or poured out. 

 

So i figured, they are best kept in a white container so I can see them easily. 

[s1l3nt]

@jayc -> External breeder boxes. The ones that run of air pumps. Used to use containers, etc myself. Found the effort to care for them WAY easier in the breeder boxes due to constantly flowing water. No daily water changes this way, jsut put them on a larger fry tank and away you go with water changes there :) This is way less noisy on a rack in a garage or something :P I've picked up a few of htem now, love them. Only use containers for eggs nowadays, and even that is only because i use meth blue for fungus, etc. 

The other bonus for the above is that the boxes are clear. Easy to view fry AND foods. :) Not too expensive either, think they are about $20 or so usually.

@Kaylenna I passed around quite a lot of my cultures last time around, all for free. Even covered postage 90% of the time. So few people keep them long term, it really sucks. i struggled to get the cultures back again when I needed them recently (after letting all ym cultures die off in a house move...). Grindals are the hardest to find in good sized starter cultures! :(

[Kaylenna]

2 minutes ago, s1l3nt said:

External breeder boxes.

I love those... but where do you get them for $20?

3 minutes ago, s1l3nt said:

So few people keep them long term, it really sucks. i struggled to get the cultures back again when I needed them recently (after letting all ym cultures die off in a house move...). Grindals are the hardest to find in good sized starter cultures! :(

Ah, we just have to get more of the REALLY hardcore fish keepers.  Or really bored people who like funky little critters.  I'd gladly share some grindals with you if I can ever get mine to multiple properly - they're up to almost half a cat food kibble per day... it might be a while... LOL.

I currently have : infusoria, (just started) vinegar eels, microworms, and black worms.  I will have: other smallish whiteish worms and red wigglers from my composting worm bin, once it warms up a bit.  If anyone needs any of that, you're welcome to drop by and pick it up or I can try mailing the smaller, undemanding critters.

21 minutes ago, jayc said:

So i figured, they are best kept in a white container so I can see them easily. 

Also... BOYS!... there are colors other than "dark" and "white".  There has to be a workable color somewhere!  (Time to eat more ice cream?)

[s1l3nt]

@Kaylenna - $19.95 at AoA and $19.80 at Tech Den: http://www.thetechden.com.au/Aqua_System_Large_Breeding_Isolation_Box_2l_p/sa-051.htm

They are also larger then 2L despite saying 2L :) At least in my experience, they are ~3L or so.

Half a cat food kibble? Thats great. Mine arent even the tiny amount of food they get yet ... Lol. With a good sized starter culture of grindals, I found I could harvest good amounts daily after about 2 weeks. Smaller cultures take 4-6 weeks before any harvesting at all :( 

I've got paramecium, micro worms, grindals and black worms (just food, not culturing though) currently. Will soon have vinegar eels and hopefully more grindals... Happy to spread what I can when things are mature enough.

[jayc]

2 hours ago, Kaylenna said:

Also... BOYS!... there are colors other than "dark" and "white".  There has to be a workable color somewhere!  (Time to eat more ice cream?)

LOL! But that was all I had in the house at the moment.

Yes, time for more ice cream.

 

$20 for an external breeder! Man, you know how much ice cream that is??  ?

[Kaylenna]

2 minutes ago, jayc said:

$20 for an external breeder! Man, you know how much ice cream that is??  

Is that a trick question?  I'm gonna go with ... $20 worth !

But it's also a lot few water changes. 

32 minutes ago, s1l3nt said:

black worms (just food, not culturing though)

Someone mentioned somewhere back a bit in this thread that you can culture them in those breeder boxes you mentioned.  Mine were initially meant only to keep them sorta happy for longer as I fed them off, but I think they're reproducing faster than I'm using them.  I've expanded to 2 small buckets and one of my buckets is practically over-run with blackworms.  I do have to do water changes about every 4-5 days, but I also think I'm probably over-feeding them a bit because I haven't figured out a good amount yet.

Every time I've looked, The Tech Den's been out of stock ?

[s1l3nt]

Yes $20 is a little steeper than ice cream is but think about the saved time in water changes daily, etc ;) I love the lazyness of it haha. Totally worth it for me just on that alone. Hate water changes on tiny fry, have to watch out you dont siphon them then check before dumping water, and so on...

@Kaylenna I've actually kept them "longer term" in the breeder box (6 weeks or so from memory) but never cultured them. To culture them the best way si to have sharp gravel which helps them break apart as they move around, which is how they subdivide themselves and the culture grows. It's hard for me to tell if they actually grew though as I was feeding them daily the entire time to about 12 tanks... And i'm a heavy feeder :) lol.

Yeah breeder boxes seem to be a little harder to find! Put your name on the list with the seller and you should be able to get first dibs on their next shipment :) That is what I did last time and ordered 4 haha.

[Kaylenna]

10 hours ago, s1l3nt said:

Put your name on the list with the seller and you should be able to get first dibs on their next shipment :)

Ah, yeah - good idea.  I went for the nutty-er version and had my husband bring them back from the US in his luggage when he was there for a conference.  I think the co-worker who actually received the boxes was slightly confused as to why I needed 3.  It was 3 because that's all that would fit in a standard carry-on.  Today, my husband mentioned possibly taking the family to the US for Christmas break.  Guess what I immediately thought of?

My blackworms have about 7mm of coarse sand/fine sharp-edged gravel (umm... the coarse parts of a batch of supposed "play sand" that was meant for my kids, but was way too coarse and rough).  I can tell they've multiplied because there's about twice as many as I'd put in, despite feeding some off.  I think they get tossed around a lot as I siphon up some for feeding or dump out most of the water for changes.  If you're particularly not-squeamish and in a hurry... you could potentially take a pair of scissors to them and then let them recover for a bit - they not only fragment (split off little worms from the middle of an otherwise normal looking worm - so that for a while they look like a squat letter T), they also regenerate (chop a worm in half and you eventually get 2 fully functional worms). 

Does anyone have tips on how I might encourage my pygmy corydoras to take live food in a mixed tank with substrate?  If I put in blackworms, they just bury themselves before the pygmy get interested.  They always seem so... relaxed about foraging too.  With most of the rest of the fish, nothing makes it to the bottom, so it's not a problem!

[bluestarfish]

1 hour ago, Kaylenna said:

Does anyone have tips on how I might encourage my pygmy corydoras to take live food in a mixed tank with substrate?  If I put in blackworms, they just bury themselves before the pygmy get interested.  They always seem so... relaxed about foraging too.  With most of the rest of the fish, nothing makes it to the bottom, so it's not a problem!

Are yours active at night?(seems some peoples are and some aren't) Maybe feeding them after the rest of the fish have gone to sleep would work.

My pleco sometimes takes a while to learn that new things are food, maybe the cory's haven't figured out they can eat the blackworms?  Maybe drop in food they are familiar with then the worms once the cory's have come over?

[Kaylenna]

On 10/23/2016 at 1:03 AM, bluestarfish said:

Maybe drop in food they are familiar with then the worms once the cory's have come over?

Perhaps mine are a little wonky... but dropping food near them = they skitter away.  Not far usually - just a cm or so... but they move AWAY from it.  They'll eat stuff that's perfectly still and on the substrate already.   Lol.  I stuck them in my Red Cherry tank for now - they skitter away from tiny Cherries too.  It's kinda hilarious.  Of course, the males are barely bigger than an adult Cherry.   I was hoping to be able to breed them in a normal tank (community or shared with shrimp), but it looks like I may need to try something else. 

[bluestarfish]

It does sound hard to get them to breed if they run away from all the yummiest foods. I hope they can figure it out, cory feeding frenzies are adorable.

[Kaylenna]

So... I've found a sorta live food that the pygmy corys readily eat...  I've been feeding them the infertile/not developing zebra danio eggs.  I figured if most fish love to eat their own eggs... why waste the ones that won't hatch?   I don't think eggs would categorized under "low maintenance" though - it's a fair bit of work to collect the eggs.  I suppose it'd be less work if I didn't care how many danio eggs actually hatched.  Encouraging the production of, collecting, and cleaning 100+ eggs per female every 2-3 days is still quite a lot of work for relatively little...fish food.  Good thing that wasn't the point!  It does make me wonder if it was worth setting up a dedicated egg-laying external breeding box for easier regular collection...  But what would I do with the hundreds of baby danios that would hatch from the fertilized and surviving eggs??  Feeding actual baby fish to other fish seems rather mean - to be done only if desperate (deformed babies and such). 

It was very funny to watch the smallest male pygmy cory trying to eat the eggs though - he had to have a few go's at it - I think they barely fit in his mouth!

 

Also...  In case anyone's wondering about using the crust vs inside of bread for microworms:

I've found that after about a 2 weeks, the microworms did just fine being fed on crusts only - I had made up a few separate cultures without crusts and a few using those would-be discarded crusts.  The difference is that you'll get a layer of oil on the surface, likely from the butter/egg wash that is often used to give bread crusts their golden color and crisp.  Production does not seem to have been seriously affected, but both types of bread cultures did slightly better than the oatmeal cultures and smelled a LOT better (a bit like a slightly off sour-dough starter - bready, yeasty, sweetish and slightly sour VS quite sour with other overtones).  These results are merely impressions - I have not had the time to actually try it more rigorously (with measured amounts of media and inoculated worms).

[jayc]

On 28/10/2016 at 4:15 PM, Kaylenna said:

the microworms did just fine being fed on crusts only

Well, if anyone was also wondering ... Wholemeal crusts are also fine, and the microworms are doing just fine in that medium.

 

I've also tried the MW with some Chlorella (an algae similar to spirulina) added into the bread mix. And the worms turn a darker colour. 

I've now have more Microworms than I know what to do with.

 

[Kaylenna]

6 minutes ago, jayc said:

I've now have more Microworms than I know what to do with.
 

Yes... I know the feeling.  I actually stuck most of my stash outside to chill them some and slow down growth.  I also feed them to my bigger fish - the guppies, tetras, and danios will eat them just fine.  The female betta ignores them.  My SAEs apparently like them too; they'll swim through the water column to eat the microworms, their heads tilted up so they can actually eat.  The baby guppies and smaller fish love them, of course.  It's a bit of a pain to feed the big fish with them though - I do bits at a time to let them chase down all the worms before putting in another bit.  1 5mL dropper full of microworms in water (to rinse them slightly) can take 2 hours to feed. 

And I know most sources will say the microworms die in about an hour... but I've found them alive and squirming about 12 hrs after a feed.

[jayc]

I stumbled on some excellent sources of information on the web on live foods.

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/microworms.htm

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/eels.htm

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/blackworms.htm

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/grindal.htm

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/fruitflies.htm

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/shrimp.htm

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/brineshrimp.htm

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/lifetimes.htm

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/livefoodtastetest.htm