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Zebra

Caridina Zebra, best breeding conditions.

74 posts in this topic

Haha Will do mate, it's actually REALLY easy 🙂 which surprised me, Anyone should be able to make one.

Im just working out some kinks now then I'll post a how to when I'm done. It's not going to end up as pretty as the twin star but works good.

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It deserves its own thread 😀

 

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WOohoo, I'm honoured @NoGi

i thought I'd just posted it in the wrong spot haha that's cool.

Now im a premium member I'll get around to the step by step photos of this, so it's broken down for everyone to see 🙂

I'm gonna talk to a mate about getting something 3D printed I can just slot the skewers and mesh into, 

3D print a box for a controller and the whole thing would look pretty pro. 

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On 2 January 2017 at 9:20 AM, Zebra said:

Feed them a tiny tiny tiny smidgen of baby powder by boss aquaria about 3 days to a week ago.

could be coincidence but since then I haven't been able to spot any babies.

im gonna call it, this litter is all dead.

lost a few adults in the heat wave too, back to the drawing board,

sucks sooooooo bad.

sad face

i knew I shouldn't have messed with it but I just couldn't help myself grrrrr. I still don't see how that small amount of food could have wiped them out. It was like a few grains of sand worth. I'm very careful not to over feed.

the only thing they actually seem to like eating is fresh or frozen blood worm and other fallen zebras.

if there is a dead one in the tank their will be others feeding off it inevitably, 

Note: seems they are total carnivores apart from them obviously eating algae lol, but from my understanding most algae is super rich in protein so still supports that theory. 

Sad to hear that mate. My juvies do pretty well on the Boss baby powder so I'm not sure whats going on there. Do you have plenty of biofilm in your tank? The rush to eat bloodworm and dead tank mates indicates to me that there isnt a lot of other food around. 

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There's lots of healthy algae growth on the walls. 

Yeah im pretty sure something else is going on other ten what I feed them. 

Not sure, but I don't think I will be able to afford to do zebs again for awhile if I lose them this time after trying hard to do things right. 

They might just be too sensetive for my current capabilities or some factors I cant figure out lol 

looking in their tank yesterday and today I can only see like 2, last time I counted there was like 20-30

Theres no dead bodies or anything so idk, one bubble filter was off for awhile maybe they are hiding in there.

ill post pics of the tank tomorrow 

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I'm always keen to better my underderstanding and learn new things @fishmosy if you don't mind explaining a bit more about biofilm please? I'll just post a pic and can you tell me if it looks good,

There seems to be a decent amount of Copepods ( I think they are called) getting around. 

They still hang out under the sponge filter most of the time, do you think there's too much light or something? Or do they just like it there, I haven't put any caves or rocks in this time cause I want to keep it easy to spot any dead.

cheers mate

Looking around this morning I could spot 7 or more so they must have been just hiding lol

image.jpg

image.jpg

Spotted atleast 10 now so they are just hiding lol.

Do they go pink like this just after moulting or something?

i have so much to learn about shrimp 

image.jpg

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@Zebra There is an excellent thread on biofilm here: 

 

@Zebra Looks like you have a decent amount of biofilm so far. It should become thicker over time. 

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Cheers mate great read on biofilm.

I more meant they flock to blood worm compared to any other food I put in the tank, like snow or shrimp crack etc.

Making my own proper salty shrimp minerals this week, adapted from a reef keepers recipe, is it just me or does putting damprid in your tank sound like an awful idea? Haha 

I get that it's just clean calcium but seems really nasty and chemical haha like I'm pretty sure your really not supposed to eat the stuff lol

 

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Its all about the amount that you add. We need oxygen to live but too much will kill you. 

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YEah for sure, still ended up getting pure calcium chloride from bulk not damprid from woollies (which I'm sure is still damprid haha) 

Update: 

I noticed a few more individual deaths over the last week, one per day on average, my colony has demonised to under 20,

So had to beef up my processes etc

got some new equipment for slowly dropping water in- makes life easy.

also I got sick of them

hiding under the sponges and figured they don't feel safe or have anywhere better to hide, remembering when I first got them they swarmed to a bit of driftwood in the tank, so I swapped the plant on lava rock for a small piece of driftwood with anubias and Java moss. By this point I don't think much else I do can be negative considering they are dropping off regardless- short of randomly changing they're WP which never happens lol

So in short massive kudos to fishmossy and anyone that does keep/ breed these, as I won't hesitate for one second to admit they are clearly beyond my care and I'm not sure it's fair to the species for me to try these again which is a little heart breaking but yeah. 

I had a really bad start to be fair, 

but my last lot should have at the very least survived, tank doesn't get over 21-22c and is very well matured etc. nice healthy biofilm growth, stable ph of around 7 and WP with tds ranging from 17ppm to 27ppm max. Generally stable.

so out of like 37 from this lot there's bugger all left. 

Saddest face ever.

Thinking the go is a flow through system that takes in like 50ml a few times a day and output a little more then that back into the tank.

A bigger tank may also help but I doubt that's my issue they were in a bigger tank when I first got them.

eh I tried

Verdict? 

These guys don't want to be alive, they've  evolved over how ever many hundreds of years to not survive. Pretty  bad trait to pass onto your children if you ask me haha

A great example of how delicate Eco systems can be, these guys will be extinct within 20years if people don't successfully breed them in aquaria. 

The slightest change even a construction worker accidentally dropping a large reactive rock or bit of cement into they're river and the zebs will be screwed for miles. Scary tbh.

 

 

IMG_1569.JPG

Edited by Zebra
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Just thinking outside the box for a moment... could there be anything contaminating the water ? Airborne even? Some piece of equipment made from bad plastic or coated?

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My thoughts... 

 

Maybe try a "biofilm food" such as Bacter AE?

 

Epsom salts may raise GH, however it does not increase calcium in the water. It might help them absorb calcium, but it does not contain calcium itself.

 

If you can get babies, try raising them in higher GH water? The adults may have a difficult time in higher GH but you might be able to acclimate the younger shrimp to higher parameters easier?

 

I do wonder how horrible the shrimp would do in my water... It has a 3-4 GH and KH values with 40-60 TDS. I'm in North America though, so I wouldn't be able to easily get a hold of any zebra shrimp, I believe.

Edited by Zoidburg
.

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That sucks to hear mate. Yeah zebs are a bastard to crack. I've been working with them for a number of years now and still dont feel like I have them pegged. 

Was it calcium chloride or calcium carbonate that you got? Calcium chloride shouldn't be used in freshwater because freshwater organisms dont get much exposure to chlorine ions. Fine for saltwater tanks (the bulk of sea salt is sodium chloride), but not fresh. 

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Yeah I'm an idiot, I've tried so hard to learn as much as I can about aquaria, but seems pretty invain a lot of the time. 

chloride- chlorine. Should have thought, regardless that's not what has been killing them, could be contamination, I don't know hey, by this point I probably never will. 

 

Zoidberg I understand what Gh is made up of, cheers.

Also 3-4gh is way too wild for these, they need a tds of less then 30ppm. The 2 are completely relavent to each other. 🙂Regardless of where you live. 

 

I guess knowing more then every fish shop in my area still doesn't make me that clever haha.

Edited by Zebra

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Reading about the zebra shrimp made me think about someone who's breeding tiger mixes and raising them in tiger/neo parameters, despite the fact that they are mixed with bee shrimp.

 

The female tiger shrimp would be introduced to the bee tank, would berry up, then be transferred back to their own tank. The offspring would thus be raised in the tiger parameters. I wonder if something similar could be achieved with these zebra shrimp, although it may be somewhat more difficult.

 

I've seen some people say to use Epsom salts to raise the GH in the tank. I just don't necessarily think it's a good approach personally.

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I've heard someone has kept a crs type in with the zebs but to my knowledge it never became berried. I'd say it might be a long shot as Caridina zebra seems to have evolved from Caridina typus whereas the other Caridina in the trade (CRS, TBs, ect) appear to have evolved from a different Caridina ancestor (serratirostris from memory, but dont quote me). Point is, the further apart you are on the evolutionary tree, the more difficult it is to hybridise. 

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I'm aware of the hybridization fact.


I'm just wondering if it would be possible to raise the offspring in higher parameters than what the parents are capable of living in, thus being able to achieve a "stronger" shrimp. I, unfortunately, have no easy way to try and test this out.

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No-one has gotten enough generations through yet to really test this out. I'm still working towards getting enough F2 to adulthood to work on producing F3. They are a tricky species and each generation seems to be just as sensitive as their parents. 

I've heard people claim to have grown zebs through three generations from wild caught, and claim it was easy. They can never provide pictures or information on how they supposedly did it, which makes me quite skeptical.  

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For sure  spot on as usual.

Someone on a Melbourne shrimp group on FB says they have F2 ra ra ra and I got booted for pointing out his WP make no sense:

tds- 30ppm

gh-2 (dkh)

kh-2

I simply stated it would be closer to 60-100ppm and he should check his meters/ tests haha people be talking sh1t. Saul someone or other. Anyway...

 

So I retested everything as there's still roughly 8 shrimp left I still have to believe I have some chance of turning this around. 

Turns out the Ro water I was buying had like over 4ppm random crap in it (knowing my luck puuuuure chlorine)

I asked the guy and he said he actually does need to change his Ro membrane- Time to buy my own Ro unit- yeah like I can afford that after all the G's I've dropped on my aquaria lately. Partener is gonna leave me... I'm fine.... is fine.

Im so frustrated to think this happened from simply not dechlorinating the water.

I did check the tds of water in buckets before slowly dripping as I always do, and it was only like 2ppm which I just figured was from leftover minerals (I only use this bucket and drip for these zebs- nothing else they have they're own net and everything as to not contaminate they're tank even with extra tds etc. 

that or my tds meter is a bees dic off. But it's a brand new xaio mi from new breed and it works great so it's not my tds meter.

 

update:

They are absolutely loving the wood with moss and anubias, maybe there is some relavence there @fishmosy? Maybe the wood provides small amounts of tannins etc lowering the ph just slightly among other things, cause there seems to be better sources of biofilm for them in the tank as I've showed you before. :)

Am I allowed to get more if I kill these last few? Haha

lost 2 since last update. latest was yesterday. No deaths noticed today, 

Im doubting its heat- though not entirely ruling that out either.

I took out the extra airstone to further eliminate possibilities of plasticisers, and the line had some pink stuff on it which is beyond my reasoning- @fishmosy?

 

done with being frustrated, back to a logical mind and just plodding alongwith these guys.

cheers

 

oh and the guy from LCA is another that says he just breeds them in a pond, and same deal, just makes out like it's nothing but no pics. He's who I bought them off but I'm posetive they are wild caught and sold by AI the mainstream conglomerate, mainly cause the return address was for AI in QLD BUT LCA is in Liverpool I assume Sydney? Lol talk about wtf. Oh and AI bag too. So really it could even be most of the wild caught ones just spinning out and not acclimatising well. And like 2/100 actually are able to acclimatise to survive a tank regardless of the care level

(not that mine has been spot on, but it was before introducing the last 37 tested soooo many times.)

Edited by Zebra

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9 hours ago, Zebra said:

Someone on a Melbourne shrimp group on FB says they have F2 ra ra ra and I got booted for pointing out his WP make no sense:

tds- 30ppm

gh-2 (dkh)

kh-2

I simply stated it would be closer to 60-100ppm and he should check his meters/ tests haha people be talking sh1t. Saul someone or other. Anyway...

 

My tap water comes out ~50 TDS with 3-4 GH and KH. (3 1/2?)


Around a flooding incident we had earlier this month, the TDS went down to 35 and the GH and KH were 2-3, closer to 2 than 3, though. (2 1/4?)

 

So those parameters look right to me... Use an HM TDS-EZ meter and the API GH & KH kit.

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@Zebra I think you are right with regards to TDS and GH/KH measurements. Logically, 2KH and 2GH together should give a TDS around 60 or more. There could be two reasons for the discrepancy. First, most people use liquid test kits to measure KH and GH, which rely on the user seeing a change in colour. Its pretty dam hard to see a colour/colour change when you only add one drop of test liquid. Easier to see it after two drops. Second, there is some margin of error for all test kits. The TDS meter might be out by a little bit and the liquid test kits only measure to the nearest drop (i think its equivalent to 17ppm for API test kits) so theres plenty of room for overlap and a wide margin of error. For example, two drops for a GH test could mean anything from 17ppm to 34ppm (assuming 17ppm = 1 drop). Remember ppm is parts per million, so we are trying to measure tiny amounts of ions dissolved in a lot of water. 

I would have thought 4ppm in the RO water would not have affected the shrimp too much. Trouble is you dont know what the 4pm is. I wouldnt think it would be chlorine because its a fairly easy ion to remove. Assuming the 4ppm is chlorine and trying to neutralise it would probably do more harm than good as you are adding more ions to the water = increased TDS. Always best to get your own RO unit, I've got one and I'm still kicking myself that I didnt get it alot sooner. Our forum sponsor FSA has some units that are reasonably priced and work well. I bought the combined RO and drinking water unit and I think it is fantastic.

I'd say they are loving the plants and wood because its a good source of food, specifically biofilm. There is no plants and not a lot of wood in their natural habitat, so I dont see any specific reason to add them. That said, they are unlikely to harm the shrimp and removing them out of the tank now is propably going to cause more problems than it solves. 

@Zebra I say, yes you are allowed to get more if these die. Zebras have a steep learning curve and my first attempt at keeping them didnt go well, even when I have the advantage of being to their wild habitat and seeing how they live. Keep at it. 

The pink stuff on airline is usually some form of microbe (bacteria or fungus usually)  that seem to feed on stuff that leaches from the airline. I've never found it to be harmful and I've seen snails eating it. 

 

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I believe the guy from LCA when he says he breeds them in pond/s. There are several reasons for this. Firstly, Jeff (LCA) is friends with a friend on mine from Cairns who has kept and bred the zebs using the same method. Secondly LCA is located in QLD very close to Tully Gorge, not in Sydney despite the name. I have measured the water parameters in the areas around Cairns and Tully, and the water is more or less the same as where the zebs live. Therefore its easy to have the water flowing into the ponds straight from the tap (I've been told LCA has its own bore). The disadvantage for us is that keeping the shrimp under these conditions is basically like keeping them in the wild - the shrimp are used to the same water parameters and so must be kept in the same way as wild caught shrimp when they arrive in our aquariums. 

I'm pretty sure LCA would supply AI so that explains the bag. That said, I know AI is supplied on occasion with wild caught zebs so if you purchased them via a retail store or wholesaler, its impossible to know where they originated. 

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Wow thanks so much fishmosy, info explosion haha.

That makes a lot more sense now, nah I also believe Jeff breeds them it's more he made out like it's easy which I guess it is when you have access to water with their exact WP haha. Maybe if he had explained that rather then saying "They aren't hard to breed at all" I'm starting to like LCA less and less for different reasons like selling my livestock to other people etc but anyway let's not get into that now.

Haha I had no idea LCA is in qld.

cheers

 

@Zoidburg you may need to redo some of your research. Most of what you mentioned isn't relevant in relation to keeping these. This is a pretty advanced aquaria subject as I'm more so finding out the further I delve into keeping them. Also check all your meters and kits cause something's not right there. Not meaning to come across as rude mate, but I just want to hear from people that do keep these shrimp to be honest 🙂

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Yeah it is easy to keep them if you have access to the same water as where they live 😄

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