Dying shrimp colonies

[marian4232]

Hello guys,

My name is Marian.
I have started keeping shrimp in 2015.
Yesterday i have started having problems (neocaridina shrimp started dying a lot) and i am trying to find a reason.

Here is my setup:

I have started the project in October 2015.
3 tanks 90x43x40 (split in 3). In total there are 9 smaller tanks (they don't communicate with each other)
Filtration is the same for every tank: undergravel filter with Red Bee Sand and double sponge filter
Lighting is the same for every tank: LED stripes
I am using only RO water with Salty Shrimp GH+, 25% weekly water change.
I am using Glas Garten and CSF food.

1st tank has CRS and CBS (some berried females)
2nd tank has Panda, Blue bolt, Red Bee spotted head (and also some babies)
3rd tank has Yellow neocaridina
4th tank has Sakura SS neocaridina (almost all females were berried)
5th tank has Chocolate neocaridina (some berried females)
6th tank has Blue fairy neocaridina (some berried females)
7th tank has Tigers (some berried females)
8th tank has Super Crystal red
9th tank has some neocaridina culls

Water parameters are very similar for all tanks:

pH: 6.7-6.8
GH: 5-6
KH: 0
Temperature: 22 degrees
NO2 and NH3: 0
NO3: 5 - 10 ppm
TDS: 140-150

Everything was good until yesterday.

Here is what i have done yesterday:
- added 3-4 alder cones to each tank (i have used alder cones from the same batch in the past with no problems )
- added one oak dried leaf in each tank (i have oak leaves from the same batch in the past with no problems)
- added one dried walnut leaf to the Sakura SS tank (the leaf was collected from the parking lot where i live. I have never used them)
- made a mix for the 1st time with Glasgarten Bacter AE, Glasgarten Betaglucan, Genchem Astaxanthin and one Glasgarten Artemia pad (i crushed it and made it powder). I have mixed the powders with aquarium water and i have dosed the resulting liquid in all 9 tanks
- i received 10 goldfish for a client and i have introduced them temporarily to a tank in my home (a different tank)

After 2-3 hours of doing all the above, i have started to see shrimp dying in the Sakura SS tank (all the others were fine at that time).
I made 2 water changes in the tank hopping that i might save them. I was wrong.
After 2 or 3 hours more, same symptoms started to show in the other neocaridina tanks. CRS, CBS, Taiwans, Tigers and Super Crystal red are all fine.

The affected shrimp swim like crazy like there is something affecting them. I can see that the muscles under the shell for yellow and blue neocaridina is turning white. It's like they are trying to move but their muscles are tight.
What could i have done wrong?
When i first saw that only the Sakura SS were dying i thought that the walnut leaf from the parking lot was the culprit, but soon other neocaridina started showing the same symptoms.
I removed the walnut leaf from the Sakura SS tank and also all the oak leaves from each tank.
Could it be the alder cones and the oak leaves to suddenly drop the pH (i didn't test the pH yesterday but today it's 6.7-6.8 like it used to be every time. The active soil keeps the pH stable)
Could it be the mix with Bacter AE and Betaglucan? I have recently read the following instructions from Glasgarten for Betaglucan: " We recommend a few hours before and after feeding give no other food, in order to optimally exploit the effect of betaglucan." I have rarely used these products (Bacter AE and Betaglucan) for neocaridina shrimp because i know they are not that sensitive. I have mostly used them for Caridina and Tigers.
Could the goldfish be carriers for a bacteria that they are immune to? I may have introduced this bacteria in the shrimp tanks.
I don't have air freshers in the room and i have not used any perfumes.

What bothers me even more, why only the neocaridina tanks have been affected?
At this moment, 90% of Sakura SS shrimp are dead and the rest are trying to survive. Yellow and blue neocaridina shrimp are not good either (more than 50-60 % died and the rest are strugling to survive). Chocolate neocaridina are not affected that much but i feel that they will soon start dying like the others.

What do you guys think?

Here is a video.

This picture has been taken in 2015 before introducing shrimp in the tanks.

 

Thank you for trying to help me find a possible reason.

Edited May 12, 2016 by marian4232

[zn30]

My first thought was "added one dried walnut leaf to the Sakura SS tank (the leaf was collected from the parking lot where i live. I have never used them)" which may have cycled through to the other tanks. The leaf may be polluted or sprayed? The goldfish may also be a factor I think trial and error is needed by yourself and try to deconstruct what you have done as you state in you very discriptive post however you can not undo the water changes. I run my tanks at a constant 23*c however 22 is within range. Sorry for your losses and sorry I really don't have a solution for you, hope all begins to improve over the next few hours.

[Ronskitz]

That is a crisp clean setup. Its really wierd that this is happening in a few of the tanks and wierder still that its only affecting the neocaridina. It probably wasn't a good idea to put the unknown walnut leave in as it could have had any type of pesticides or fungicides on it but even still that was only put in the sakura tank so doesn't explain the deaths of other neos but if you are seeing milky white bodies that could be muscular necrosis. I dont know how to put a link up for you from my phone but if you go to the shrimp diseases and diagnosis thread there is a wealth of info on there. Someone else with more experience will probably chime in too hopefully. Good luck with it all and i hope you work out what's happening

[KeenShrimp]

Hi @marian4232, have you done an emergency water change? Also, I notice that you do not have a filter capable of running carbon: is it an option of buying a n HOB or generic canister filter that is able to run carbon through your tank? There have been many posts on different forums on shrimp dying from people adding leaves from outside to their tanks. Have you removed that leaf? If it is indeed the pesticide, which sounds like it is, since the shrimp are showing a stressed reaction ( as opposed to bacterial infection), you will need to get the poison out ASAP before most shrimp die.

The other guys out there: is NO3 of approx 10 not a tad high for metabolic stress?

 

Good luck.

[jayc]

@marian4232 Sorry to hear the news of your cherry shrimps.

Your water parameters look ok.

Nitrates isn't so bad. The test kit only gives you a range, so it could be on the lower part of that range, ie 5.

I just have a couple of questions to help me understand your situation:

• Are your tanks all sharing one sump? or are the tanks completely separate with separate water and  parameters?
• Can you add Sochting oxygenators? If too little oxygen is present in over stocked tanks, this will help.
• Has recently been treated with a medicine?
• Use liquid fertilizer or anti-algae agents or other additives?
• How old is your RO unit, and when was the last time you changed the RO filter media?

 

As an immediate action:

• Remove all the alder cones, leaves and bring the tank down to it's minimum. 
• Stop adding the Bacter AE, and Glucan, additional powders and minerals.
• Go back to basics. RO water, remineralise the RO. Do smaller water changes - no more than 10% a week. You can split this into 5% twice a week. Just pure water change, no other additives.
• Add anti chlorine (dechlorinator for when tap water is used) into the affected tanks immediately. I ask how old your RO unit was, because of a possible suspicion that chlorine from the tap might be leaking through your RO filter. Are you sure you are using the correct output of the RO unit? Not the waste water side? (It's obvious, but gotta check).

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by jayc

[OzShrimp]

Aside from what others have already said has anyone sprayed any pesticides inside your room or nearby such as fly spray etc. 

Given your running sponge filters if that gives into the pump you will lose shrimp. Sadly i lost my first ever lot that way but it was an insect bomb and tank was left with the pump running and all my shrimp went white and died or in process whilst all white. 

[marian4232]

On 5/12/2016 at 11:21 PM, KeenShrimp said:

Hi @marian4232, have you done an emergency water change? Also, I notice that you do not have a filter capable of running carbon: is it an option of buying a n HOB or generic canister filter that is able to run carbon through your tank? There have been many posts on different forums on shrimp dying from people adding leaves from outside to their tanks. Have you removed that leaf? If it is indeed the pesticide, which sounds like it is, since the shrimp are showing a stressed reaction ( as opposed to bacterial infection), you will need to get the poison out ASAP before most shrimp die.

The other guys out there: is NO3 of approx 10 not a tad high for metabolic stress?

 

Good luck.

I did emergency water changes.Unfortunately i cannot add a HOB filter. I hqve removed the leaves. The breeder which i took the crs from, had 100 ppm No3 in he's tank. The crs were medium grade and they were breedimg like crazy. He has 500-1000 in an 100 liter tank. I don't think 10 ppm no3 matters that much.

 

On 5/13/2016 at 2:54 AM, jayc said:

@marian4232 Sorry to hear the news of your cherry shrimps.

Your water parameters look ok.

Nitrates isn't so bad. The test kit only gives you a range, so it could be on the lower part of that range, ie 5.

I just have a couple of questions to help me understand your situation:

• Are your tanks all sharing one sump? or are the tanks completely separate with separate water and  parameters?
• Can you add Sochting oxygenators? If too little oxygen is present in over stocked tanks, this will help.
• Has recently been treated with a medicine?
• Use liquid fertilizer or anti-algae agents or other additives?
• How old is your RO unit, and when was the last time you changed the RO filter media?

 

As an immediate action:

• Remove all the alder cones, leaves and bring the tank down to it's minimum. 
• Stop adding the Bacter AE, and Glucan, additional powders and minerals.
• Go back to basics. RO water, remineralise the RO. Do smaller water changes - no more than 10% a week. You can split this into 5% twice a week. Just pure water change, no other additives.
• Add anti chlorine (dechlorinator for when tap water is used) into the affected tanks immediately. I ask how old your RO unit was, because of a possible suspicion that chlorine from the tap might be leaking through your RO filter. Are you sure you are using the correct output of the RO unit? Not the waste water side? (It's obvious, but gotta check).

 

All the tanks have individual filtration. They don't share anything. My tanks are not overstocked. 20-30 shrimp in 40 liters. I am not adding any medication, fertilizer or algicides. Only shrimp food and water changes. My RO unit is not that old. I have changed all the filter media in 2015 (sediment, carbon and membrane). I'm using the correct RO output yes. I test the water with a tds meter when remineralising.

 

 

 

Here is the update.

After the incident, intereating things have happened.

After 1 week i started losing shrimp from other tanks also: crs, cbs, spotted head hybrids, taiwans, tigers, scr. Only a few died 10-20% compared to the neocaridina incident.

In the same time, a lot of sakura ss and chocolate babies started showing from the substrate. They weren't affected. They grew and they are still growing. 

I am glad that i still have stock to work with.

The dying has stopped in 3-4 weeks after the incident.

Now i have babies in most tanks and all are doing good.

I stopped dosing Bacter AE. I threw away the forest oak leaves collected by me far away from the civilisation.

This incident made me super paranoia.

Now, i wash my hands every time i acces the shrimp tanks. I have also became more careful when it comes to shrimp equipment.

 

Thanks for all your help.

 

Might i ask what can i do to improve caridina baby survival rates?

 

Thank you once again.

[Matuva]

I had the same misfortune 2 months ago after I clean the front glass of my tanks.

I used a sponge I usually used, but I might have polluted it with something and din't notice that, or may be I didn't clean my hands enough? I don't know, but the fact is that a disaster happened then

About 1/2 hour after the cleaning, I saw the shrimps swimming all around like crazy. I though this was the males dancing but found suspect this did happen in all the tanks.
Then, I realized that not only the males were "dancing", but the females also...

Thinking something weird was happeneing, I did a 30% water change in each tank.

The day after, the disaster started: I had a massive death of the local shrimps, and a severe loss in the neocaridina, except the red cherries.
I lost about 50% of the blue carbon rili, orange, yellow, blue pearls and red blue rili. I tried to perform rescue water changes on a regular basis, but I was continuing losing shrimps.

After a month, the first colony where things started to ease was the yellow., Then things slowly go easier on the other tanks...

Now the yellow colony starts to grow again, the blue carbon rili, I only have 4 females left, 2 are berried, the blue pearls, only 3 females left, 1 berried, red rili, 2 males 1 female left, orange are better, around 20 shrimps left with several females berried.

All that long story to tell that I believe shrimp tanks are VERY sensitive to what you introduce inside. IMO, you might have introduced something lethal with the alder cones or oak leaves, or may be did not wash hand carefully enough...

I also noticed that things went better after I stop performing water changes once or twice a week.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Matuva

[jayc]

15 hours ago, marian4232 said:

Might i ask what can i do to improve caridina baby survival rates?

Lots of biofilm for them to eat and lots of moss for them to hide in.

[marian4232]

On 6/20/2016 at 2:01 AM, Matuva said:

I had the same misfortune 2 months ago after I clean the front glass of my tanks.

I used a sponge I usually used, but I might have polluted it with something and din't notice that, or may be I didn't clean my hands enough? I don't know, but the fact is that a disaster happened then

About 1/2 hour after the cleaning, I saw the shrimps swimming all around like crazy. I though this was the males dancing but found suspect this did happen in all the tanks.
Then, I realized that not only the males were "dancing", but the females also...

Thinking something weird was happeneing, I did a 30% water change in each tank.

The day after, the disaster started: I had a massive death of the local shrimps, and a severe loss in the neocaridina, except the red cherries.
I lost about 50% of the blue carbon rili, orange, yellow, blue pearls and red blue rili. I tried to perform rescue water changes on a regular basis, but I was continuing losing shrimps.

After a month, the first colony where things started to ease was the yellow., Then things slowly go easier on the other tanks...

Now the yellow colony starts to grow again, the blue carbon rili, I only have 4 females left, 2 are berried, the blue pearls, only 3 females left, 1 berried, red rili, 2 males 1 female left, orange are better, around 20 shrimps left with several females berried.

All that long story to tell that I believe shrimp tanks are VERY sensitive to what you introduce inside. IMO, you might have introduced something lethal with the alder cones or oak leaves, or may be did not wash hand carefully enough...

I also noticed that things went better after I stop performing water changes once or twice a week.

I'm sorry for your loss.

Indeed, shrimp are sensitive and we must be careful. I've learned my lesson now.

On 6/20/2016 at 3:26 AM, jayc said:

Lots of biofilm for them to eat and lots of moss for them to hide in.

Thank you.

I'm using IAL for biofilm. I also have some moss but i need more.