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larrymull

A couple of RCS deaths

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larrymull

Hi Guys,

Over the last couple of days I have head some RCS deaths. One I am not sure why and the other one I felt like she was going to die as she could not moult (I could see her shell almost split in 2 at the saddle). All females in this tank are breeding exceptionally well and all other shrimp seem fine.

My water parameters are:-

6.6ph
0 ammonia
0 nitrites
10 nitrates
200 TDS (a bit high for my liking prefer around 170, so will bring this down slowly)
 
I keep these RCS with my CRS shrimp.
 
So I am just wondering if it is my setup that is causing these issues or just coincidence that these two deaths happened at the same time?

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Callan

What are you feeding your shrimp? It sounds like it could be a lack of calcium that is causing the issue.. 

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fishmosy

The moulting issue suggests a problem with your GH or KH levels. Also your nitrates at 10ppm are a bit high, suggesting possible overfeeding or a need for increased water changes. 

A couple of deaths are not always a sign of a tank going wrong (death is inevitable), but should be a sign that you should recheck all water parameters. 

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larrymull

@fishmosy I agree on wp check.

no over feeding going on as all others seem well and there will be days I don't feed them. I also supplement the water with mineral powder, mineral balls, and boss booster.

Just checked wp:

6.6ph

0 ammonia

0 nitrites

10 nitrates

1-2 kh 

8gh (how do I lower this?)

205 TDs

have just done a 15% water change, usually do 10% water changes weekly but lately these have been more top ups due to evaporation. There does look like 1 more rcs that is having trouble moulting.

Hopefully the water change helps the suggested ideas above @Callan

 

 

 

Edited by larrymull

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Callan

So again from what you have said @Larry it appears the issue is only occurring during the moulting stage.  Fishmosy is spot on when he mentioned that some deaths are inevitable due to age etc. I would still be interested in what you feed and how often. I ask this not about the overfeeding that Fishmosy mentioned but I have read that with crustations that they need food before the moult because they do not feed whilst moulting takes place. There are three stages to the moulting process and during the middle process they produce lipos which assists in the molting process. I have not had a lot to do with mineral additives because I have never used RO water or tank water. If adding the minerals and again not knowing the breakdown of ingrediants myself, but thinking about possible ingrediants, then Fishmosy could be spot on with the GH levels he mentioned. Your GH level is too high and needs to come down to about 4GH. I may be wrong but if you were adding to much of the mineral additive it could be pushing your GH levels up. I think I remember reading it in one of the threads on here., 

You could lower gh by adding peat moss, spagnum moss (must be washed thoroughly before using), driftwood, RO water, distilled water or even rainwater. Peat moss will add tannins and spagnum moss may yellow the water but these can be removed by adding activated charcoal or some substrates depending on what your using also remove tannins. It sounds like you are already doing consistent water changes so again I come back to a lack of calcium being the issue. Maybe try feeding a high calcium food such as Kale or other vegetables high in calcium to assist with this issue. Definately get GH level down

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larrymull

Thanks for the response @Callan

I feed the boss baby shrimp powder 1 or 2 times a day but as instructed on the packet. (These are for the shrimplings).

I feed new era shrimp food, Hikari Shrimp Cuisine Wafers Pellets Food, blanched IAL/mulberry, cucumber, peas, barley straw. How often I feed these? Would be once a day, skipping a day every 4th day and alternating these foods but primarily the new era and hiker shrimp cuisine. 

What are high calcium foods to sell them?

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Disciple

How many shrimp do you have in your tank? 

From what you have said above it seems you are feeding a lot.

Before I culled my rili tank I had a few hundred shrimp. I would feed once every two or 3 days and add a medium size mulberry leaf twice a week.

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larrymull

@Disciple probably with shrimplings a hundred or so, most are shrimpets though, approx 30 would be 4 months +

It does appear I am feeding a lot, from what you have said. Would you recommend continuing to feed the daily feed of the baby powder or cut that back too?

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Disciple

Well Your water parameters seem fine but I would cut back a bit on your feeding.

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jasper408

The various strains might be a little different down under, but I don't think his GH is too high at all. All of my tanks with different varieties of Neocaridina contain my very basic and hard tap water (10 KH, 14 GH, 8.0 pH). I do top-off with RO water, so the values remains rather constant, but a GH of 8 is more than likely not the problem. 

I think what's telltale is that you hadn't experienced any deaths from your CRS before your RCS. RCS are much hardier than the former and can survive in a much wider range of water values(including nitrates). My assumption is that it was an unfortunate coincidence. 

 

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Callan

I agree with Disciple about the overfeeding. I feed every second day personally and a protein feed once a week. I think it has been missed that you specifically mentioned that the shrimp have died during the moulting period. So coincidence I don't think so.

I would try feeding Kale it is very high in calcium.

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larrymull

FYI - even though the water parameters have been a bit high in my opinion i have still seen moulting occur. Also, after a water change yesterday I have seen moults this morning. 

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Callan

Thats a great sign @larry, and it will usually occur after a water change. IMO I would still be feeding high calcium greens and definitely cut back a bit on feeding. The other issues from over feeding will be added pressure on the bio-system but will also cause issues such as planaria, 

I just saw that JC has put up an excellent thread about Calcium and magnesium. Might be worth a read. I hope things settle quickly for you.

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larrymull

@callan thanks again for your comments. No problem with planaria in this tank or hydra for that matter, there are a lot of pregnant RCS too so that tells me yes they have been molting, no problems there. However it is the odd one that isn't moulting that is annoying and I think that is where the death has occurred. They seem to have a split between they saddle.

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kizshrimp

I've been working pretty hard on a feed formulation the recently and one point that perhaps seems counter-intuitive to many shrimpers or aquarists in general is that the Phosphorus level in the food needs to equal or exceed the Calcium level. Some of our most popular fresh leaves, for example, have very limited P contents with very high Ca contents. The Ca uptake is then restricted due to a lack of available P. The same approach is slowly filtering into human health supplements via Vitamin D / Calcium supplements that also contain Vitamin K and Phosphorus. Your bones contain more P than Ca. 

There are several well-known (and undoubtedly more as yet unknown) mineral and nutritional ratios that should be observed in crustacean feeds and sadly very few of the feeds on the market seem to observe these recommendations. It appears as though they are formulated primarily to have an attractive ingredients list. I will continue posting on this nutrition topic as I get time. 

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jayc

There is a sticky thread with a list of foods that are high in Phosphorus as a ratio to Calcium.

That might be helpful to some people, maybe.

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larrymull

Fantastic thanks @jayc It is good to know I have been feeding them some calcium in mulberry leaves, spinach, peas etc. I do believe I have a pretty well balanced tank - i was just unsure why there were deaths.

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DemonCat

Regarding the overfeeding, I have white clouds in my tank too. I feed the fish most days - I skip a day here and there - and only add shrimp pellets or algae wafers weekly or fortnightly. Do shrimp eat left over fish food? I have had the tank set up for about five months and never had issues but would hate to think they are starving!

Edited by DemonCat

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jayc
6 hours ago, DemonCat said:

Do shrimp eat left over fish food? I have had the tank set up for about five months and never had issues but would hate to think they are starving!

Shrimp are scavengers. If any fish food is missed by the fish and fall to the substrate, the shrimp will eat it. However, too much fish food isn't good for shrimp. Or rather feeding fish food exclusively to shrimp is not good. Fish food doesn't have the right nutrition for shrimp. While they can survive for a while on fish food, in the long term the shrimp will suffer.

The shrimp, thankfully, can also eat biofilm in the tank. 

If you need to get food to the shrimp without the fish getting to them first, try feeding veges, leaves (IAL, Mulberry), flowers. 

 

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DemonCat
58 minutes ago, jayc said:

Shrimp are scavengers. If any fish food is missed by the fish and fall to the substrate, the shrimp will eat it. However, too much fish food isn't good for shrimp. Or rather feeding fish food exclusively to shrimp is not good. Fish food doesn't have the right nutrition for shrimp. While they can survive for a while on fish food, in the long term the shrimp will suffer.

The shrimp, thankfully, can also eat biofilm in the tank. 

If you need to get food to the shrimp without the fish getting to them first, try feeding veges, leaves (IAL, Mulberry), flowers. 

 

Tried blanched spinash, shrimp didnt touch it for 36 hours so took it out of the tank. 

Damn fish eat all the shriomp pellets before the even hit the floor - and demolish the algae wafers too.

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jayc

I find shrimp won't start eating veges or leaves until they are really, really soft.

Which means either blanching them longer, really boil the heck out of it, or just leave it in the tank.

Indian Almond leaves and mulberry leaves are always good, and the fish leave them alone.

Same with flowers. No blanching needed, straight into the tank, as long as you are sure there was no pesticide on it.

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