Newbie - Need Help with Water Parameters

[Winglet]

Hi Shrimp Saddos (I now count myself in this select group of addictees, despite having some Red Cherry Shrimp for all of one week now)...

 

Before I ask for your help, here is all the info. I can think of that might be asked for to help me to keep these cute little blighters healthy in our 10 litre RCS only filtered tank (I'm only going for alive & well at this point... forget reproduction):-

 

Name: Cherry Shrimp(Neocaridina Davidii)

TDS: 100-250 **My TDS reading unknown - where do I get a TDS pen & how much will it cost me?

PH: 6.5-7.6  ** My pH reading 6.8 consistently (maybe closer to 7.0 - my eyesight's not helping)

GH: 4-14  **My GH reading is now 7 but was 1 (one) fives days ago (once I realised from here that I need to measure the hardness)

KH: 0-10  **My KH reading is about 3 or 4

Temp: 18-24  **My temp. is set at 23 degrees on the heater - what do people recommend as an accurate thermometer, where is the best position for placement in or on the tank?

 

Pre-Water Change weekly measurements:

Ammonia: < 0.25 ppm each time (did 20% water change with Prime last week immediately before adding RCS, and only 10% today per advice on SKF that "less is more")

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: Less than 5 immediately prior to final pre-shrimp water change last week but now at 0 (is this a concern? does it mean the tank has stopped cycling properly & I have a problem?)

 

 

What else is in the tank?   

DURING CYLING - From the other tank, filter medium (ceramic cylinders) both in the filter & lying on the ground for them to hide in &/or graze on, gravel, and a couple of danios, plus some low growing plants from the other tank. Danios moved back to other tank before RCS added.

AFTER RCS ADDED - Ten or twelve (LFS threw in a few extras) RCS were added to the tank after cycling BUT I also added all of the following POST cycling (newbie mistake) - 

Wood - one of those branchy, tree-like ones from the aquarium shop

Java Moss

Duck weed (we have ducks... so the more of that that grows the better... they love it .. unless it's going to be a problem for the shrimp in any way)

Three other plants.... names?  I think there's a small anubias type thing in a cylindrical aquarium pot, there's a really cool curly wurly plant that the shrimp LOVE to climb on, and a very low growing "ground cover" from the coldwater tank that is impossible to kill (yay !)

Lighting is a Zetlight MINI... white....pretty sure it's the 6500K one (box thrown out by hubby who was being good & tidying up). 

 

AFTER A FEW DAYS OF INHABITANTS - added some sand from the other tank (half a handful) as read that the RCS like to sift through sand... keen to find some black or very dark brown sand if such a thing exists (genuine sand, not the glittery man-made stuff).

Added a handful of crushed coral from the other tank, as two days in measured hardness & it was non-existent... that has immediately helped with the water hardness.

 

Have had at least two deaths (where I can see the dead bodies).... one caused the hardness tests & the other happened yesterday.... now that I have at least two deaths I'm jumping on here for help before I have a bloodbath on my hands.

 

I need KISS results, if that's at all possible.  My closest likely stockist of shrimp-friendly products is not one whose advice I trust in any way, shape or form (they've led me a merry path with both the setup of this tank & with a prior tank a few years back when I was getting an axolotyl... why, oh WHY did I trust them this time  **aaaagh** )... on the plus side they're open Sundays if I desperately need something they stock.

 

I have seen a few moulted exoskeletons across the week.   Day 1 activity levels of all shrimp were very high, swimming, eating, exploring.  Since then activity is almost non-existent with not a lot going on.... just sitting on branches & leaves.

 

Thanks at this point for the fact you've read all this information..... and thanks in advance to anyone who can assist me to get this situation in hand for the sake of our new addictive little shrimp.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Winglet

[killer007]

I just think the death comes from stress of adding here and there

also the sand and coral actually increase the ph and hardness of the water, its not good for shrimp, IMO, but good for Sulawesi shrimp cuz they like hard water

 

i am guessing your original water reading is from aged tap?

the GH is 7? or 1?

what about the GH for your aged tap water?

[Winglet]

I just think the death comes from stress of adding here and there

also the sand and coral actually increase the ph and hardness of the water, its not good for shrimp, IMO, but good for Sulawesi shrimp cuz they like hard water

 

i am guessing your original water reading is from aged tap?

the GH is 7? or 1?

what about the GH for your aged tap water?

 

Thanks for responding, killer007.

 

Tap water, direct from tap, has GH of 1... and this was also reading from the tank water before I added coral, and is the reading of the tap water with Prime added before adding to the tank for water changes (ie. top up of the 20% last week & the 10% this week).  It still read GH 1 after I added sand & before coral, although there was only half a day (?) between those things.

 

GH in tank water now, since adding coral 5 days ago, is 7.  Tap water today still reads GH of 1... with or without Prime.  I hadn't been aging it.... I note a thread here where it says best to add Prime (or other water conditioner) then age, so will do so from now on.  How long is sufficient to age it?  How long is too long (ie. if I make up 20 litres, is it going to be of no use in many weeks time when I'm still using it for my planned 10% weekly water changes?  

 

If pH has altered since adding the coral it has been 0.2 change at most (eyesight again).

 

I'm thinking that if there's nothing else obvious, the sudden shock of going from whatever their original water hardness was, to the soft water of 1, and then me raising it up to 7 with the coral, has been (as you state from "adding here & there") what's done it.  I didn't realise it would boost the hardness as much as it did, and thought I'd only added "a little"... clearly not.  I increased the hardness due to the list of parameters on SKF indicating 4 to 14 would be best for RCS, and figured 1 is significantly outside that range & very soft water.

 

I will sit tight & wait out another week with no changes.  I notice a bit more activity this afternoon so am feeling a tad less guilty.

 

 

Separately, I notice on close inspection today a "cobweb" type effect on the wood in places, particularly at the large cut surface side.... like a gossamer blanket in places which billows like a small pillow if there is water movement nearby (eg. shrimp swimming past).  Anything to worry about?  

[revolutionhope]

you didnt mention details of your feeding? water parameters are not so importsnt with rcs as long as therr is more than a few degrees gh and at least some kh. my cherries thrived in very hard water with tds of up to 450ppm. gh and kh both somewhere above 20 cant remmeber exactly.. this was in a 4foot tank with guppies, corydoae and lots of plants. pH was always just below 8. I didn't do water changes for 5 months which is how the water became so hard. my rcs bred like rabbits!!!

everyone here will tell u stability is most important issue with cherries. nitrites and ammonia do need to be zero. temperature must be fairly stable without much fluctuation and kept below 30.

also make sure u dont overfeed! I was overfeeding recently and spent a lot of effort sorting out water parameters when im pretty sure the most important thing for me to fix my shrimp health was simply to feed less often (a significant feed once every 2-3 days is safest and the rest of the time let them graze on plants, wood etc - indian almond or mulberry leaf is a good idea for this purpose)

others here are more experienced than I am and may offer more expert opinions but I think most here will agree with my advice.

hope I've been helpful and wish you and your shrimps well!

love n peace

will

[revolutionhope]

hopefully someone can let you know what the cobweb could be - im not at all sure.

btw some pictures of the "cobweb" and of your tank in general and/or shrimps may help too! Good luck :-)

edit - sorry one more thing! :-) my experience as mentioned above leads me to humbly disagree with killer on the matter of ph and hardness but I absolutely agree that making too many changes too rapidly is likely to be the cause of the problems.

Edited April 12, 2015 by revolutionhope

[Disciple]

Hello Winglet,

 

Just wanted to check a few things.

 

How long did you cycle your tank for? and how did you acclimatise the shrimp when you put them into the tank?

 

Your water parameters seem fine except for the ammonia it is best to have it at 0 as revolutionshope mentioned. The jump of of the GH from 1 to 7 in 5 days seem quite a lot not sure what a increase in gh in that time period may cause but other than that 7 is a good number for RCS.

 

If you are looking for TDS pen our sponsor Aquakitz sell some. If you google TDS pen there are also other cheap options. I think I got one for under $20.

 

As for your question about aging the water I would say about 5-7 days should be enough.

 

As for the Cobweb issue please take a picture of it and post it up. I am thinking you might have some hydra in the tank which is not good but a picture would help.

 

and Welcome to the forums. I hope you enjoy yourself here.

[kizshrimp]

Hi Winglet, 

 

you've already gotten some good advice above. I hope it's helped. Here's my contribution, trying not to repeat points which others have pretty well nailed already.   

 

Cycling the tank is very important. There's no quick way around fit because you're not just trying to establish the biofilter, there's also the biofilm and algae inside the tank which is an important food source for the shrimp. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to maintain stability in a 10L tank - it seems counter-intuitive to beginning aquarists, but bigger tanks are much easier to manage. You will have to do very small water changes when you do and I would suggest you add the new water by dripping it in from a container placed above the tank. I tend to siphon it through an airline, often with a tap at the end to restrict the flow (to individual drops). With any tank and any livestock kept therein, smaller more regular water changes are better than larger less frequent ones. This is especially important for shrimp. I also suggest that you condition the water in the bucket (or other container) and check the hardness value, pH etc before adding it to the tank. That will avoid the problems you've already had. 

On the plus side, since you're using Prime the ammonia reading you're seeing should be bound (neutralised) and not particularly harmful to your shrimp. 0.25ppm doesn't sound like much but let me assure you, it's a potentially lethal level even for some fish. On the down side, because you're using Prime, you may continue to measure ammonia for longer than you normally would. 

 

The coral is an issue. Normally in a tank there is a level of acid production going on as a by-product of all the life in the water. This includes the fish/shrimp and plants, but much more significantly all of the microbial activity, both in the filter and in the rest of the tank. As the tank matures and these acid sources increase, your pH would normally want to drop, but be countered by a cleverly-managed KH level to buffer against that drop. The coral is made of carbonates however, and these will dissolve out uncontrollably as the acids mentioned above attack them. Your pH and KH might not have changed much yet, but they will start to move significantly. Especially in your position as a noob, I would remove coral and other calcareous (great word huh?) materials asap. 

 

Moss - great.

Duckweed - messy, but great. Just make sure you remove some fairly regularly. It's not about aesthetics, it's about nutrient export ie removing the nutrients that the duckweed has sucked up and locked into its biomass. Same goes in the pond - always keep room available for more duckweed to grow by removing some with a large net, it makes a great compost additive. 

"impossible-to-kill ground cover" - alarm bells. I don't believe there's any such thing. Post a photo please but be aware that many crappy shops sell plants which aren't aquatic. Some of these will survive months underwater but will ultimately die, and the nutrients released into the water at that point could easily crash a small tank. 

 

Black gravels - be very careful and don't believe any shop that tells you that the type they sell won't affect your water parameters. Same goes for the rocks they're selling BTW. The best way to go are the shrimp or plant specific "black earth" substrates which are more costly but much safer. 

 

Cobwebs - it's almost certainly a fungus/mould type organism growing on the (probably new?) piece of wood. More on the cut end because the cut allows access to the vascular openings in the wood. Nothing to worry about, will go away eventually and will provide a food source for the shrimp. If you're concerned post a photo as Disciple said. 

 

What side of Melbourne are you on? If you want PM me and I'll try to suggest a decent shop for you to check out. A few of them are actually conscientious, helpful and knowledgeable types. A few of them.   

[Winglet]

Thanks everyone for your responses & advice.  It is appreciated.

 

I'm feeling quite disheartened as well as thinking I'm a shrimp-killer.  More deaths today.

 

I think that I'm going to ditch any remaining shrimp that are alive (the axolotyl will appreciate them) & consider if shrimp are for me at all.

 

If I come to the conclusion that I will give it another go at some point, I will clear everything out of the tank & start again from scratch at some point in the future.

 

I'm so annoyed that I didn't find this site just before the Victorian shrimp event was on in March (?) as that would have been a great place to ask what to do.