No Saddles

[crazyshrimp]

Hey Guys and girls been a while since ive been on the forum.. Just Curious if you have any tips for getting females that havent gotten a saddle for a while to develop one?? IE high protein foods, more water changes etc?

 

[2OFUS]

A nice water change and add some bloodworms or something super high in protein :)

That's what I do

[ineke]

I agree with 2OFUS providing all other water parameters are good then a slightly larger than normal water change and a feed of frozen bloodworms often does the trick. You should also check the Gh KH of the water to make sure there are no moluting issues -the water change will often bring on a heap of moults and this is the time the girls are ready to mate - the protein fed 2-3 times a week before the water change should condition the girls.

[crazyshrimp]

Thanks to you both for the reply, gh - kh is optimal!! I breed TB and all other bee shrimp on normal gravel with great success (one tanks ph has been as high as 8 over summer) , it just seems that as the weather starts cooling down outside things slow down in the tank..... happened last year as well, when spring came around berried females everywhere... ill try giving the bloodworms a go :) is there any other commercial shrimp food available high in protein?? 

Ill just add even in my pinto tank that has a ph of 5.8 im having the same problem atm, no deaths (knock on wood) but no saddles either!

[ineke]

I find I have a quiet time around autumn too. I have induced breeding by 30% water Change 3 x3 days apart as was told by our old shrimp guru Dean and while a few did breed I found it a bit drastic so never tried it again. It probably is a nature thing less food available in winter so less breeding and although our shrimp have come from many generations of captive breeding it still may kick in. My hubby doesn't agree he doesn't think the shrimp could know the seasons because of our artificial heating and lighting but never the less they seem to slow down.

[revolutionhope]

just thought id chime in here - im no expert but I believe that photoperiod and temperature will determine seasonal response of marine : edit - aquatic - animals.

however with ocean creatures they have an internal clock for tidal changes which functions normally regardless of conditions in an artificial environment.

Edited April 9, 2015 by revolutionhope

[newbreed]

I definitely had a slowdown last year (June through September) so there must be a natural seasonal response.

But you can't beat bloodworm, small amounts, for saddle development!

[revolutionhope]

thats interesting maybe ir is coincidence but perhaps invertebrates are different to fish in this regard. I know fish spawning is commonly manipulated in aquaculture by varying photoperiod and temperature.

[Anaeflurane]

I use bloodworms and Aussie Blackworms in my home made protein food that I use on my shrimp. Following a 15% water change, shortly after they have shed and have become berried :)

Edited April 10, 2015 by Anaeflurane

[revolutionhope]

i've been doing some reading into native habitats of neocaridina and other species and i wonder if those above who said they experience a slowdown of breeding at this time of year use chillers for their neos in summer? is it possible that warmer house temps in summer might be resulting in tanks which are a ltitle bit warmer over summer than they are at this time of year and heading into winter.

 

i'm still pretty sure that fish/shrimp don't have a "seasonal clock" so in our artificial environment it should be possible to manipulate breeding behaviour by temperature -i do know that this is the practice in aquaculture with many fish and with many marine crustaceans and also with freshwater crays.

 

whether or not photoperiod is influential i haven't found any evidence one way or the other.

 

i am seeing a little bit of a slowdown myself and i know my temperatures have dropped during the daytime especially and a little at night too and i'm confident enough to turn my heaters up gradually. im also going to start running my lights on timers at night instead of randomly turning them on when i get around to it as sun is setting if im home LOL and then turning them off after checking the tanks before i sleep. (my tanks receive loads of sunlight during the day)

 

i hope others can provide more nput on this subject; i know there are some scientists kicking around here!

 

i think it is a very fascinating subject and of great importance too. especially as my longterm goal is to move into aquaponics/aquaculture in the future and promote sustainable food production.

 

=edit= i am actually pretty sure photoperiod is going to be just as important with our freshwater shrimp too i just havent found anything yet aside from crays and lobsters.

 

love n peace

 

will

Edited May 3, 2015 by revolutionhope

[inverted]

Try lowering your light intensity and see what happens! Or provide more shade!

Edited May 3, 2015 by inverted

[revolutionhope]

Hey inverted can you explain how it would help? lighting should become more intense heading into summer?

[revolutionhope]

I guess I should add thay my luxmeter shows quite reduced intensity compared to what it was when the room was first setup. the sun is already a lot lower in the sky.

[kizshrimp]

Photoperiod, light intensity and angle, temperature, water parameters, barometric pressure and more all have an effect on regulating animal reproductive cycles in the wild. These factors still have an effect on captive animals, but as they are bred more and more in captivity they become less and less influenced by such external parameters. Successive generations get easier to breed in captivity. 

Some of the shrimp we keep are hybrids and in these the "wild" triggers could be really messed up. 

 

There's probably some interesting and useful info to discover but it will take some work. Sounds like you're interested enough to start testing the boundaries revo. 

[newbreed]

I use chiller in summer and last year saw a noticeable slowdown in my CRS June through August. I personally believe ambient temp as photoperiod were stable throughout the whole year.

[newbreed]

But another thing to consider is providing protein rich live foods like bloodworm as this does assist in formation of saddles. I guess in nature there would be less live foods available over winter periods, but we can change that!!

[revolutionhope]

newbreed perhaps would your lifestyle/routine be different and result in a reduction in total timeperiod with lighting on for you to view the shrimp?

I know im clutching at straws but to me there must be an explanation. and im so sure that I would bet my left nut that shrimps dont have an internal calendar. ;-)

[newbreed]

Careful, you bet it you may lose it!!

I was going to say there has been no change, but that would be wrong. I run for four hours in the morning, off for around seven hours, then back on for another six at night.

This was different in the past, being a solid eight-nine hours, but can't recall exactly when I changed it!

Phew! I think your nut is safe!! Lol

[revolutionhope]

I have a spare one incase im wrong ;-)

coincidentally all day been pretty much getting berry after berry (and one death) since this morning after raising temps by 1-2 degrees yesterday afternoon.

I did change water last night which im sure is the biggest factor but the dramatic sudden berrying like this is unprecedented for me. i think the temp increase might have been a factor but im only guessing/hoping lol!

love n peace

will

[revolutionhope]

I mean to say I've never had breeding as intense as this caused by WC before and ive done much larger (and smaller) WC before this.

*shrugs* would be nice to prove this. if my breeding slows again in future I might consider dropping temps for a couple of weeks say and then putting them back up again to see it it happens again.. (but only doing very small incremental WC) and that would be a more significant proof.

[jayc]

What temp did you raise the water to Will?

[revolutionhope]

the change in temp depending on tank varied but before the range was 22.7 -> 24 and this morning it had increased to 24.3 -> 26. males still going bonkers in 3 of 6 tanks,   only 1/6 looked to be sexless today!   

[revolutionhope]

hi again newbreed!

 

i just noticed in another thread that you mentioned your garage gets down to the minuses overnight in winter - is that where all of your tanks are which you have the seasonal slowdown? i wonder if air temperature is very relevant. given that the shrimp dont surface very often (if at all) im not sure at all- but im definitely no scientist so i wouldnt want to rule anything out.

 

PS oh and jayc i know that 24+ will result in more breeding and faster growth and gestation etc etc - my tanks were set to the lower level because the sun was heating them up as high as 28.5 when i first settled in here a couple of months ago.

 

i truly am surprised and impressed by the resulting orgies from yesterdays WC (and temp increase?) !!!!

it would be great if this kind of research had been done and published openly. there is a lot of information on this subject but about marine crustaceans and not so much on freshwater..

[newbreed]

Hey again, yeah the one tank where I noticed the slowdown is in the garage.

 

As this is the most consistent tank in regards to breeding, it was also the most noticeable decline.

 

I had thought the colder temps (air) at night may have had an effect and was looking to test a possible solution. But I think I will just leave things as they have been, no changes to routines, for the next few months and see if there is the seasonal slowdown again.

[revolutionhope]

I tried searching with a range of different search terms and have found something VERY VERY cool (and scientific!) about neos.

Effect of Temperature on Biochemical Composition, Growth and Reproduction of the Ornamental Red Cherry Shrimp Neocaridina heteropoda heteropoda (Decapoda, Caridea) -

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0119468

 

there are some neat charts in that journal - i'll have to look over it carefully when im mentally fresher but i've just had a quick skim over it and aside from establishing for certain the common knowledge that incubation/gestation times are reduced at higher temperatures -

 

it also seems to infer that there is a higher proportion of ovigerous (egg-carrying) females at 28 degrees than there are at 24. i'm not 100% sure about that though because i need to do take more time and do some searching to understand all of the terminology.

 

the journal doesn't address seasonal variations but to me it seems that that might add further weight to kiz and other's suggestion that ornamental shrimp have less response to seasonal triggers.

 

anecdotal evidence suggests there must be a response - too many people here have reported a seasonal slowdown for it to be ignored!

 

it'd be great if someone more cluey than i could summarise that journal for us (hint hint kiz, jayc, fishmosy and others im sure!! lol) but i'll have a go myself tomorrow anyway.

 

love n peace

 

will