how to kill everything in the tank?

[perplex]

so this green hair algae is getting to me, also the millions of snails...

 

when i take the shrimp out what can i put in the water to kill everything. and what are the steps to recover the tank after to make sure what i put in to kill it is gone.

 

and secondly how do i recover my plants, mainly moss, from snails and algae

[fishmosy]

Chlorine aka bleach should kill everything, something in the order of 20 ppm. That said, I've heard stories with MTS where they have survived bleach baths, possibly by closing their shells up tight. Possible.

Which snails are you dealing with?

Might be best to ditch the substrate and everything else you don't hold dear, give the tank a good clean with bleach, rinse well several times, then setup using new substrate ect.

Everything going back into the tank needs to be thoroughly checked for snails and treated. You could try potassium permanganate (Condy's crystals) but some mosses can be sensitive to it.

Actually the first thing I should have asked is, are you sure you can't save the tank? The algae and the snail outbreaks sound like the tank is being overfed. Can you move the shrimp to a new tank, and then try to rescue this one without having to worry about killing your shrimp? If so, here is my suggestion. Move only the shrimp to the new tank. No other mosses, plants ect.. Then stop feeding the tank. This includes leaves like IAL and veges like Kale. Use a snail trap (and manual removal) to get the snails out (they will go more readily to the trap because you aren't providing any other food), use a blackout or dose with Aquagreens dinospit (glutaldehyde) to kill the algae combined with daily manual removal and large water changes. Consider also siphoning the substrate, depending of course on the type of substrate that you have. This will be a difficult process over a couple of weeks to get the tank back to where you could consider putting the shrimp back in. However a little effort every day will see it through. Essentially its reseting the balance of the tank.

Alternatively you could even leave the shrimp in, and focus on fixing the problems by implementing solutions over time (weeks). The first thing to do then would be to stop feeding for around a week. This includes leaves and kale ect. So if you have IAL, take it out. During this time, use a snail trap and manual removal to reduce the numbers of snails. Remove some algae manually, a bit every day, even if you can only get to it 5minutes every day. And importantly, do water changes. I think 2-3 times within that week, around 10-20% each time, possibly more if you are keeping RCS or most natives, but definitely not more if keeping CRS ect. Then after the week is up, you can begin feeding again, but only a fraction of what you did in the past. Say, 1/10 of before. The shrimp should beat the snails to the food. Keep trapping every day and removing the algae manually until you can't see it anymore. But most important, keep up the water changes. Only increasevthe amount of food if the shrimp are consuming it all within minutes, before an snails get to it. A feeding dish may be really useful at this time.

The number one thing to carefully consider (whether you go reset or repair) is to try to understand what happened to get the tank to where it is now? Are you overfeeding? Were water changes regular? Did you experience a decline in shrimp numbers but keep feeding the same amount of food? Are you dosing fertilisers? If so, how much? Are you running CO2? The reason why I say this is because if you don't figure out what went wrong, its likely to happen again.

Best of luck.

Edited March 15, 2015 by fishmosy

[fishmosy]

Forgot to mention, an old toothbrush makes a really good tool for removing hair algae. Especially on/in moss. Use as a brush or twirl the brush like the way you twirl a fork to twist on spagghetti. Have personally used this method to great effect.

[Matuva]

Forgot to mention, an old toothbrush makes a really good tool for removing hair algae. Especially on/in moss. Use as a brush or twirl the brush like the way you twirl a fork to twist on spagghetti. Have personally used this method to great effect.

 

What he says. I succeed cleaning a portion of Suberwassertang using a toothbrush. Works great!

[perplex]

Chlorine aka bleach should kill everything, something in the order of 20 ppm. That said, I've heard stories with MTS where they have survived bleach baths, possibly by closing their shells up tight. Possible.

Which snails are you dealing with?

Might be best to ditch the substrate and everything else you don't hold dear, give the tank a good clean with bleach, rinse well several times, then setup using new substrate ect.

Everything going back into the tank needs to be thoroughly checked for snails and treated. You could try potassium permanganate (Condy's crystals) but some mosses can be sensitive to it.

Actually the first thing I should have asked is, are you sure you can't save the tank? The algae and the snail outbreaks sound like the tank is being overfed. Can you move the shrimp to a new tank, and then try to rescue this one without having to worry about killing your shrimp? If so, here is my suggestion. Move only the shrimp to the new tank. No other mosses, plants ect.. Then stop feeding the tank. This includes leaves like IAL and veges like Kale. Use a snail trap (and manual removal) to get the snails out (they will go more readily to the trap because you aren't providing any other food), use a blackout or dose with Aquagreens dinospit (glutaldehyde) to kill the algae combined with daily manual removal and large water changes. Consider also siphoning the substrate, depending of course on the type of substrate that you have. This will be a difficult process over a couple of weeks to get the tank back to where you could consider putting the shrimp back in. However a little effort every day will see it through. Essentially its reseting the balance of the tank.

Alternatively you could even leave the shrimp in, and focus on fixing the problems by implementing solutions over time (weeks). The first thing to do then would be to stop feeding for around a week. This includes leaves and kale ect. So if you have IAL, take it out. During this time, use a snail trap and manual removal to reduce the numbers of snails. Remove some algae manually, a bit every day, even if you can only get to it 5minutes every day. And importantly, do water changes. I think 2-3 times within that week, around 10-20% each time, possibly more if you are keeping RCS or most natives, but definitely not more if keeping CRS ect. Then after the week is up, you can begin feeding again, but only a fraction of what you did in the past. Say, 1/10 of before. The shrimp should beat the snails to the food. Keep trapping every day and removing the algae manually until you can't see it anymore. But most important, keep up the water changes. Only increasevthe amount of food if the shrimp are consuming it all within minutes, before an snails get to it. A feeding dish may be really useful at this time.

The number one thing to carefully consider (whether you go reset or repair) is to try to understand what happened to get the tank to where it is now? Are you overfeeding? Were water changes regular? Did you experience a decline in shrimp numbers but keep feeding the same amount of food? Are you dosing fertilisers? If so, how much? Are you running CO2? The reason why I say this is because if you don't figure out what went wrong, its likely to happen again.

Best of luck.

thanks for the reply

 

the type of snails, well i probably should of looked at my old topic before i said snail, you guys seem to think they are 'freshwater limpet' and like you said in the post, higher the temp, but i didnt have any luck. i posted a topic a while about it, here http://shrimpkeepersforum.com/forum/index.php/topic/8008-what-are-these/#entry97130

 

20ppm is now much ml per L?

 

I use to use furts in the tank but stopped after i tried to kill the algae and didnt succeed, then i tried no lights, still didnt work (not total black out so thats probably why)

 

interesting how you said IAL is feeding, i never thought of that, and then yes i would be way over feeding with IAL, i didnt think that would have any effect, its just a leaf....ill take them out later

 

how much is to much of IAL? say if you have 40 shimp, a piece of IAL 10cm 10cm for them? or is that way to much?

[kizshrimp]

ppm is equal to milligrams per litre, so weight for weight 20ppm = 0.02ml/L. I have not factored in molecular weights. Bleach is only about 5% chlorine and Mos may have meant either chlorine or bleach concentration. 

>I don't recommend your adding bleach to the tank. Read below.<

 

I have to agree specifically with some things fishmosy said. The plague can't occur or sustain itself without a food source. That could be algae or biofilm rather than direct feeding, but the end result is still undeniable. We the aquarium keepers are providing all the nutrient input to the system and have to determine where that input is coming from, or the problem will continue despite any "band aid" control measures we apply. 

I'm not having a go, perplex. I have plenty of snails in my tanks and so do probably most people on here. It's partly learning to live with them which probably only happens when the numbers aren't out of control. 

 

While probably irrelevant here, yes the gravel snails aka Malaysian Trumpets or livebearers will shut their doors tight and ride out a bleach treatment unharmed. The same is true of copper treatments or any other chemical you care to throw in your tank to treat them. They just wait until the concentration falls to tolerable limits before opening back up. 

Edited March 15, 2015 by kizshrimp

[fishmosy]

Oh limpets. Well, limpets LOVE IAL. In fact, they make a good trap for them. Drop in the leaf for an hour or two and the limpets will swarm onto it. Then lift the IAL out. From memory, zucchini is also relished by limpets.

I have a vague memory that limpets dont like high temperatures. A week of 28*C might be enough to kill them all, but be sure the do a large water change afterward as the rotting limpets may cause a spike in nutrients and more algae. Likewise moving the shrimp from the tank before heating it up is adivised.

Another way to get rid of limpets could be reduce the pH, probably best done without te shrimp in the tank. I've found in the past that the limpets disappeared when my pH fell below approximately 6.0. Maybe something to try.

It may be more difficult to win the battle against limpets than other snails because they can survive on the algae growing on surfaces in your tank. Keeping your glass clean using an algae magnet or similar may reduce the amount of food available for them, and help to lower their numbers.

The amount of IAL that is appropriate for your tank will depend on a few other factors such as if you are feeding other foods and the type of shrimp. In my chameleon tank, I feed at least two leaves every week. They just demolish them. In my CRS tank, I feed one half leaf per month or so. If the leaves aren't being eaten by the shrimp, they become a resource for other organisms in your tank such as snails.

I can't remember what concentration bleach comes in so can't give an accurate idea of volume. However 20 ppm is roughly equivalent to a capful in a 10 L bucket. Better to go more rather than less if you are hoping to kill everything.

Edited March 15, 2015 by fishmosy

[fishmosy]

ppm is equal to milligrams per litre, so weight for weight 20ppm = 0.02ml/L. I have not factored in molecular weights. Bleach is only about 5% chlorine and Mos may have meant either chlorine or bleach concentration.

>I don't recommend your adding bleach to the tank. Read below.<

While probably irrelevant here, yes the gravel snails aka Malaysian Trumpets or livebearers will shut their doors tight and ride out a bleach treatment unharmed. The same is true of copper treatments or any other chemical you care to throw in your tank to treat them. They just wait until the concentration falls to tolerable limits before opening back up.

The 20ppm refers specifically to the chlorine as that is the part in bleach that does the killing.

Luckily limpets do not have an operculum (the 'lid' that snails shut themselves with) so will be susceptible to bleach.

Edited March 16, 2015 by fishmosy

[kizshrimp]

Thanks fishmosy. KISS, a capful per 10L works for me. 

 

I recommended not bleaching because of the food source issue and band-aid solutions bit, not because the gravel snails shut their doors. I think trapping with IAL or otherwise as you suggest is a far preferable option here. 

[fishmosy]

Yeah I definitely think the tank is salvagable, it just might require a bit more effort and take a little longer than a reset. I guess that is up to the OP.

[ineke]

I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty sure you can bake the substrate in the oven to kill off the snails. It was suggested to me ages ago when I put new  plants into my tank. I checked the leaves but didn't think about the roots and sure enough I have a pretty bad infestation. I didn't bake my substrate because the tank is too big with hundreds of shrimp in it but if I was doing for a smaller less populated tank I would bake it at about 180 for 30 minutes remember to rake it around to make sure you dry it thoroughly otherwise the snails might just survive! Worth a try and not toxic for the shrimp.

[kizshrimp]

Great suggestion Ineke and again far preferable to dosing with anything toxic. Not that I'm against sterilising tanks and inert contents, but I don't think it's a great idea to try if not completely confident, or at least prepared to experience losses. 

Perplex, I hope you've gotten something useful out of this discussion. Good luck mate! 

[Proto]

With snails I just remove manually each day, every single one you can see, after awhile you stop seeing them. one of my tanks is snail free just from continous manual removal.

[perplex]

so the IAL ive got in the tank is making the hair algae from crazy?

 

there is no other food, well there is but rare. so if i remove them, and give it abit i might notice a difference? after i take as much as i can out that is

[fishmosy]

so the IAL ive got in the tank is making the hair algae from crazy?

 

there is no other food, well there is but rare. so if i remove them, and give it abit i might notice a difference? after i take as much as i can out that is

Maybe. There has to be a source of nutrients for the algae to grow. If you have lots in there, it may be a source.

Do you use tapwater for water changes? If do, it might be worth testing for nitrates.

[perplex]

Maybe. There has to be a source of nutrients for the algae to grow. If you have lots in there, it may be a source.

Do you use tapwater for water changes? If do, it might be worth testing for nitrates.

nar i use rain water with jayc DIY minerals

 

i have 3 IAL all at different stages, they seem to like hiding in it. but if thats the algae issue ill have to sort something else out

[fishmosy]

Still might be worth checking the rainwater, even just TDS might give you an indication. You wouldn't be the first person to have a dead rat in the gutter end up as nitrates in your rainwater. But yeah, unlikely to be the rainwater.

This is turning out to be quite a head scratcher. There has to be a source of nutrients for algae blooms. What substrate are you using? Did you have plants in the tank that have since died. Even these could be a source of nutrients for algae.

[perplex]

last time i checked the TDS it was 30, what it has always been.

 

substrate is just pebbles, granite chips i believe or something similar, the plants i have in my tank are dying because i tried to stop feeding them and less light, then personal reason came up and i left the tank be on low light for to long with no food, but anyway the algae started before that anyway, so i dont think it could be the plants, it might be helping it now, but plants were in there fine before the algae

[jayc]

You wouldn't be the first person to have a dead rat in the gutter ...

 

 

 

 

Yes, Perplex's algae problem is a real head scratcher.

Even Algexit didn't work for him, when it was really effective for many others.

 

Is your tank next to a window with plenty of sunlight?

 

I am clutching at straws as well. Maybe it's not algae, but some alien life form growing in your tank. 

[fishmosy]

So it could be the dying plants fueling the algae now? Are the plants mainly stem plants or ferns and mosses?

Edited March 17, 2015 by fishmosy

[maddog_12]

I had a problem with algae for awhile too. I managed to stop it by adding more plants and dosing liquid CO2 every morning , plants went crazy and started to use more nutrients .

 

With the snails , i had to moving everything to get rid of the adults and looking for eggs . Atm when i see a snail its dead by squashing it and the shrimp loves the snail meat lol

[JiCi]

If you want to clean up your plants of snails eggs and small ones you don't really see in moss, soak them in a solution of one table spoon of Alun (drugstore or artist store, it's used to wash some wood for painting) in one liter of fresh water. Soak your plants for 30mn and all the eggs and snails will die by osmosis effect.

Some plants does not like the treatment, My cryptocoryne loose some leafs (they look like melting) but they grow normaly after I plant them again.

[fishmosy]

If you want to clean up your plants of snails eggs and small ones you don't really see in moss, soak them in a solution of one table spoon of Alun (drugstore or artist store, it's used to wash some wood for painting) in one liter of fresh water. Soak your plants for 30mn and all the eggs and snails will die by osmosis effect.

Some plants does not like the treatment, My cryptocoryne loose some leafs (they look like melting) but they grow normaly after I plant them again.

Never heard of this technique before. Thanks for sharing.

[GotCrabs]

I'd just start again, I don't have the patience to try and fix things, I've had dramas in the past with snails and algae and I ended up just stripping the tank, cleaning plants, new substrate in and starting again.

[perplex]

 

 

Yes, Perplex's algae problem is a real head scratcher.

Even Algexit didn't work for him, when it was really effective for many others.

 

Is your tank next to a window with plenty of sunlight?

 

I am clutching at straws as well. Maybe it's not algae, but some alien life form growing in your tank. 

its near a window, but no direct sun, always in shade

 

So it could be the dying plants fueling the algae now? Are the plants mainly stem plants or ferns and mosses?

i dont think so, i think i just have to get better algae eaters