Cherry Shrimp Dieing, cant work out whats wrong.

[Odin]

Hey SKF,

haven't posted in a while but ive come for some advice, Just to give you some background info..

I have a 130 Litre tank which has been great up to now, the Aquaone Nano 130 and ive had it running for about 17 months. I have A bulldog plec (doesn't grow bigger then 70mm), 6 Xray Tetras, 3 Small corrys, 1 honey gourami, 2 bamboo shrimp and lots of cherrys. I picked small fish for this tank because i wanted to have a family of Cherry shrimps.

Ive had cherry shrimp for around 8 months, started with around 15 and they bred like crazy, i was up to around 100 or so and decided to add a few blue cheery shrimp from the same place i always buy my shrimp. Since then i have lost around 70% of my shrimp :(

They seem to be dieing off at the rate of 1 - 2 a day from what i can see through the plants but the numbers have dwindled so it must be more, I thought it was maybe a damselfly nymph that was killing them as i found one in my tank and removed it, so i kept a close eye and they were still dieing, this whole time ive been doing large water changes 30 - 50% everyother day incase it was poisoning from somthing in the tank thats contamiated it, like a scented candle/purfume from my other half when she put her hand in the tank during a water change (im just grabbing onto anything that may be the culprit here though).

I tested the water which is from my drinking taps (which ive always used without problems) direct from the tank and it was:

0 Ammonia
0 Nitrites
and 20 - 30 Nitrate

Now these tests were from the 1st time i noticed a few die and since doing alot of water changes to dilute anything nasty in the tank (if that is the problem) then the results will be diluted even more. I stopped using my plant furtiliser which ive always used and brought the tank temp up from 21 up to 24. Ive had them breeding like rabbits prior and really healthy.

My water is mixed with dechlorinater and brought to the right temperature before adding to the tank, although i use the hot tap which comes through copper pipes ive never ever had issues like this, whats strange is they are dieing off slow, not all over the span of a day or two like id expect from bad/contaminated water. They are not dieing from failed moults and look healthy when they have died, i remove them when i can but thet dont seem to of been eaten by my other shrimp. The bamboo shrimp although alot bigger are doing fine still but they never come down to the gravel and just stay sat on top of the heater.

This has been going on for a week or 2 now and its really heart breaking, could it be an illness or disease i have introduced? If you could bounce some ideas about it would really be appreciated.

Thanks,

 

Just to add, i feed them on shrimp cuisine and they tend to eat a little of the plecos algy wafers too, i feed them every 2 - 3 days but they eat the plecs dailey as i feed him dailey.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Mech

[jayc]

Lots of views but no reply yet, so I'll get the conversation going.

 

Appreciate the extra info you have taken the time to write. It always helps knowing the background.

 

However you might be missing some vital information that we might need to determine the issue.

 

pH

GH

KH

TDS

 

Do you have the water parameters above?

 

A picture of the whole tank can sometimes help too.

A description of substrate and any rocks you might have in your scape.

 

Of the fish in the tank, I'm most concerned about the gourami and pleco. One or both of them 'could' be the suspects.

The bamboo shrimp staying on top of your heater only is a clue that they are hiding from predators. 

[Odin]

Lots of views but no reply yet, so I'll get the conversation going.

 

Appreciate the extra info you have taken the time to write. It always helps knowing the background.

 

However you might be missing some vital information that we might need to determine the issue.

 

pH

GH

KH

TDS

 

Do you have the water parameters above?

 

A picture of the whole tank can sometimes help too.

A description of substrate and any rocks you might have in your scape.

 

Of the fish in the tank, I'm most concerned about the gourami and pleco. One or both of them 'could' be the suspects.

The bamboo shrimp staying on top of your heater only is a clue that they are hiding from predators. 

 

Hey Jayc, thanks for getting the ball rolling as it were, i have tested the water in my tank just now and these are the results;

 

Im using API liquid test kits

KH - 1 Drop to turn yellow - 17.9

GH - 3 drops to turn green - 53.7

PH - 6.4 to 6.8 ? i have added a photo so you can judge for your self :)

TDS - 78ppm

 

 

GH/KH chart:

 

PH:

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2z83zab.jpg

 

Here are the requested tank shots to give you an idea, i do weekly water changes, The plec and gourami have been in the tank as long as the shrimp and never had any problems. I forgot to mention i also have 5 ember tetra but they are tiny. The bambo shrimp have to sit up high in the tank and next to the water flow as they catch their food with their Fans on their legs, they eat only small particles, thats why i have the white suckers for them to perch on... if they are on the floor scraping at the substrate it means they are not getting enough food from the water but this can lead to damaging its legs and fans so its a good thing they are up top

 

I have a horrible feeling you are going to say my water is too soft from the tap, but thats just a guess. Some shrimp have gone off and died deep inside the plants where no fish can get too so thats why im sure its not my fish killing them.

 

Edit: I have 4 Plants that grow off bogwood, An inert slate cave made with proper tank safe glue, moss balls, and a set of pipes designed for shrimp tanks. the substrate is normal black gravel and all the stuff in the tank is bought from LFS/online FS.

 

http://oi62.tinypic.com/zvvtqr.jpg

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2dlk5kx.jpg

http://oi58.tinypic.com/wb3wux.jpg

http://oi60.tinypic.com/4grj47.jpg

 

Thanks for the help.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Mech

[Disciple]

Hello Mech,

 

it is sad to hear about your shrimp from the looks of it a lot o your water parameters are at the extreme low end for cherry shrimp.

 

PH: 6.4 – 7.6 KH: 0 – 10 GH: 4 – 14 TDS: 80 – 200 but as you have said this is what you have been keeping them at for the last 8 months and they sound like they were thriving.

 

Your tank looks in very good condition from what I can tell.

 

The first thing that sticks out to me is the new blue shrimp. You mention in your first post once you added these in and in the next few weeks you lost 70% of your shrimp. Could they have introduced a new bacteria or disease? are they still alive?

 

you mentioned you had copper pipes that is connected to the tap you use. Has there been plumbing done recently that could have disturbed the pipes? are you able to test for copper in the water as small traces could be deadly to shrimp but if there was copper I would expect all the shrimp to be effected.

 

Lets say since your shrimp were for the last 8 months and all you have done for the last 8 month should be fine. The question I would like to ask is what has changed in the last 2 or so weeks? I know you have been doing a lot of water changes just incase the water was contaminated. How do you introduce the water back into the tank?

 

Thats more questions then answers

Edited February 18, 2015 by Disciple

[Odin]

My water change routine:

- Remove lid

- Syphon water and vac 1/4 of the gravel to remove fish waste, I have enough seeded media in the back to sink a battle ship so the hoover doesn't remove to much beneficial bacteria.

- check the temp of my tank to match the fresh going in

- fill the clean bucket up with hot and cold water matching temp of tank and add declorinater

- mix it well and carefully add to the tank, rinse and repeat around 40 litre.

- add liquid fertiliser for my plants which I've always done

- replace lid

I can think of lots of minute changes but because I'm ocd I think I am over thinking it.

The warm water tap comes from the boiler which contain copper which I know is the opposite of what shrimp like but I've never had issues before, all houses in the UK have copper from their boilers to make warm water, it's a combi Boiler so it warms as waters passed though so it's not like I have a tank that stays warm and runs out when it's all used up sitting in the copper like a storage water tank.

The other half had scented candles a few months back so I've removed them, we don't let cleaning products near the tank, no kids yet so nothing dropped in the tank to contaminate. No cats in the house, I keep my water treatment chemicals and liquid ferts in the same cupboard in the kitchen with other house hold cleaning stuff so could that of gotten through one bottle to another? They say on drinking water bottles to keep away from bottles of fluid that can contaminate through the plastic.

I've just bought a big tub of salti shrimp mineralized Gh and kh + to try.

Really upsetting as I'd drop in food once every 2 or 3 days and I'd have hundreds come out to eat and they were so happy then I have just a few dozen now :(

This all happened around the time I added some blue cherry shrimp) (9 of them) a few died which I put down to stress of moving etc and the others lasted longer then the other cherry red and orange started to die.

I'm going to try the saltishrimp and see how it goes, I feel so rotten, ugh lol

#walloftext

This was a few weeks back when my tank was fine,

Edited February 18, 2015 by Mech

[kizshrimp]

Yes that does suck Mech. Hope you get it rocking again. 

For me, cherries don't tend to do well in soft water but it sounds like they did fine for you until you added the blues. 

 

Be sure to make changes to your water conditions slowly - no shrimp will appreciate rapid changes, and stability is more important than reaching an exact level. BTW, if your KH test shows yellow on the first drop the reading could actually be 0. Where I am the tapwater is very soft and 0 KH is not at all unusual. 

 

If the problem is related to the blue shrimp and a bacterial strain introduced with them, perhaps feeding probiotics and immunostimulants could help. At least one person on this forum feeds oats to provide beta glucan - it could well be JayC. Perhaps using other additives (eg Mosura BT-9, Tonic Pro) as immunostimulants could help too. 

[Odin]

Yes that does suck Mech. Hope you get it rocking again.

For me, cherries don't tend to do well in soft water but it sounds like they did fine for you until you added the blues.

Be sure to make changes to your water conditions slowly - no shrimp will appreciate rapid changes, and stability is more important than reaching an exact level. BTW, if your KH test shows yellow on the first drop the reading could actually be 0. Where I am the tapwater is very soft and 0 KH is not at all unusual.

If the problem is related to the blue shrimp and a bacterial strain introduced with them, perhaps feeding probiotics and immunostimulants could help. At least one person on this forum feeds oats to provide beta glucan - it could well be JayC. Perhaps using other additives (eg Mosura BT-9, Tonic Pro) as immunostimulants could help too.

Thanks for the reply, yes my kh turned after the first drop... Probably a zero then.

I'm very interested in medicines for fresh water shrimp, what sort are available on the market and which types do what. Money isn't really an issue when it comes to my shrimp if it's going to help the situation.

[kizshrimp]

Probably a zero then.

 

 

Nah, just could be a zero. It's like when a pH test comes up at either end of the colour scale. Could be that number, could be somewhere beyond it. 

 

The "medicines" on the market are mostly preventative, so may or may not help at this point. They should be good for your shrimping future though. Most shrimp brands have a bacterial additive and a complementary enzyme that's intended to stimulate the immune system. I mentioned Mosura but that's not necessarily an endorsement. I have some of these products but tend not to use them - others can provide better advice here. 

 

JayC started a thread on disease diagnosis and treatment and there's some really useful information there. Check out Levamisole. Use the search function on this forum for oats, beta glucan, immunoglobulin and see what you come up with. Look through the shrimp care sections and wait for some experienced shrimp keepers and product users to offer more advice. 

 

Just because your shrimp used to do well despite the probable copper in your water, doesn't mean they always will. The levels will keep climbing in your tank as more is added. The animals will probably bio-accumulate it, also leading to ever-higher levels. I can't believe I'm only just mentioning this (dumbass!). Have a look at Seachem Cuprisorb or other heavy metal sponges and consider whether such a product is right for you. If it was me I'd stop using the hot water for changes and just add cold slowly (drip or siphon through an airline) if that will eliminate the copper input. Here even my cold water comes through copper pipe; I carbon-filter it on the way in and am running cuprisorb too. 

[Proto]

With the damsel fly nymph, if you found one there may be more of them, they are very easy to miss the last tank I set up filled with plants from Aquagreen had around a dozen of them, I only ever noticed and removed 2 of them but I'd come home and find damsel flies flying around the room. 

[jayc]

I have a horrible feeling you are going to say my water is too soft from the tap, but thats just a guess. Some shrimp have gone off and died deep inside the plants where no fish can get too so thats why im sure its not my fish killing them.

 

 

Sorry didn't see your reply till now.

I can't see any problems with your water, except that is it too soft. LOL.

But that is not necessarily a bad thing, since it's easily rectified. Many aquarist would rather have water that is too soft than water that is too hard. 

A low GH value like you have out of the tap means that there will be little Calcium and Magnesium, which are essential for the shrimp or any crustaceans. There will be some but it's not enough.

I see you have bought some Salty Shrimp GH/KH+, so that's the right step forward to rectifying that issue.

Add the necessary amount to bring the TDS to about 140-150 and GH to about 5-6 slowly. Drip it in and test half way through to see if you are on target.

 

This sounds like a likely cause, especially when you say they were fine in the initial months.

The small amounts of Calcium (Ca) and Magnesium (Mg) in the tank initially gets used up by the shrimp for shell development, and small water changes replenishes these minerals by a small amount, but unfortunately it's never enough. Extra Ca & Mg dosing is required to maintain appropriate levels of these minerals. But it's a fine balance. Add too much and your GH readings go too high causing a hardening of shell and eggs. Maintaining a GH level of 5 - 6 or 7 seems to be the best middle ground.

From reading many people's experiences and problems, the 6th to 8th months seem to be a very common period when not enough Ca & Mg is present. 

Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ will raise both GH and KH, as in it's name, so keep an eye on pH as well - when KH increases, pH will too.

 

That's why I mix my own remineraliser, with separate Ca and Mg+K (potassium) so I dose these minerals separately and can control each parameter. You'l note my own remineraliser has Potassium in it, another essential mineral, which might not be present in premixed products like Salty Shrimp.

 

If the problem is related to the blue shrimp and a bacterial strain introduced with them, perhaps feeding probiotics and immunostimulants could help. At least one person on this forum feeds oats to provide beta glucan - it could well be JayC. Perhaps using other additives (eg Mosura BT-9, Tonic Pro) as immunostimulants could help too. 

 

It's less likely to be bacteria. But yes, I feed Oats for the Beta Glucan source as a preventative. 

Additional bacterial additives are also good advice for prevention.

[Odin]

Hey guys, quick update on my end...

 

after loosing most of my colony and changing a few things, adding saltyshrimp etc i have not lost anymore shrimp and ive seen a moult! havent seen one in a few weeks, well since i started loosing shrimp.

 

I have added 8 scoops of SS gh/kh+

 

it has given me the water params:

 

KH 0 - 1 - 17.9ish

GH 9 - 10 drops - 179ish

PH 6.6

TDS 250

 

and before just using tap water:

 

KH 0 - 1 - 17.9

GH 3 - 53.7

PH 6.6

TDS 78

 

So the GH and TDS has risen and ive kept the SS the same but added around 5 litres extra untreated water (untreated with minerals) to top up the tank.

 

I will keep an eye my tank and i just hope i see a burried female again, should make me feel better

 

Ive added some pics of my cherrys.. a few have a white fuzz between the eyes which ive read is harmless so im not to worried right now. Thanks for looking.