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steffiev

Three RCS dead. Confused; seems to be molting issue? Please advise.

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jayc

 

Just remember those reports are only produced quarterly.

That report linked above is for the previous period from 1 October to 31 December 2014.

Point is they give you a good idea of averages for the last quarter, but not what is happening to the water right now.

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steffiev

Yeah, the report just gives a range so you know an approximate value. Of course can't confirm it unless you have the testing equipment yourself... I hope my TDS pen arrive soon!  : CONFUSED :

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steffiev

So I finally got my TDS pen today.

 

TDS (tap water): 80

TDS (aged water): 80

TDS (shrimp tank): 135

 

Also got KH & GH tests.

KH (shrimp tank): 1 dKH (17.9 ppm)

GH (shrimp tank): 9 dGH (161.1 ppm)

 

Looks ok to me. Any comments?

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petfish

KH low, GH high, TDS low

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steffiev
RCS parameters
KH 0 - 10
GH 4 - 14
TDS 80 -200
 
All my parameters seem to be in the safe range...?

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petfish

safe range, is not prefered range, a b/nose will live in an african tank but it won't be happy with the water perameters, try GH 6, KH 6, TDS 160-170, PH 6.8-7.2

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jayc

 try GH 6, KH 6, 

 

Petfish is right. If you can reduce GH from 9 down to 6, it would be more comfortable.

 

What is the GH of your tap water (aged)? 

It would be good to know. If it's already 8 or 9, then more water changes will not help.

 

Oh, and I think Petfish meant to recommend KH at 1 or 2. 

KH 6 is pretty high for shrimp. Unless you know something I don't Petfish?

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steffiev

safe range, is not prefered range, a b/nose will live in an african tank but it won't be happy with the water perameters, try GH 6, KH 6, TDS 160-170, PH 6.8-7.2

 

 

Petfish is right. If you can reduce GH from 9 down to 6, it would be more comfortable.

 

What is the GH of your tap water (aged)? 

It would be good to know. If it's already 8 or 9, then more water changes will not help.

 

Oh, and I think Petfish meant to recommend KH at 1 or 2. 

KH 6 is pretty high for shrimp. Unless you know something I don't Petfish?

 

GH (aged tap water) is 5 dGH. Shrimp tank pH is 7.4.

I am thinking a small water change, removing cuttlefish bone and adding some more IAL will help reduce GH and pH?

I'll leave KH for now until there's an explanation...?

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revolutionhope

from my limited experience I would be looking at the shrimps closely for any sign of disease kr parasites because rcs dont seem to care about water parameters that ive noticed

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jayc

GH (aged tap water) is 5 dGH. Shrimp tank pH is 7.4.

I am thinking a small water change, removing cuttlefish bone and adding some more IAL will help reduce GH and pH?

I'll leave KH for now until there's an explanation...?

 

Ahh huh! 

Cuttlefish bone, that is what is raising your GH. 

Cuttle bone contains calcium carbonate and it's raising your GH. 

Your KH is fine at 1dKH. It's strange that it's so low since cuttlefish bone would raise both KH and GH.

 

Too much calcium carbonate without also supplementing Magnesium is probably making the shrimps shells too hard for moulting. It least it might be making it harder for the shrimps to moult, and if the shrimp is weak, it won't moult properly or exhausts itself trying.

 

The GH of your aged water is perfect. Don't change it. But keep an eye on your TDS value as you do water changes.

Some peat in your change water might help.

More IAL will also help, but it will be slower, and take many leaves. 

A combination of water change, IAL and peat will be best. As long as you have removed that calcium carbonate source (cuttlefish bone).

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steffiev

from my limited experience I would be looking at the shrimps closely for any sign of disease kr parasites because rcs dont seem to care about water parameters that ive noticed

 

Yes, my first suspicion was disease or parasites because of how hardy RCS are but from my observation, there seems to be no signs of fungal or bacterial infection, or any parasites. So far the death counts are 3 on January and 2 this month. But there's at least 40 RCS in the tank so it is not a big impact to my population. Everyone is breeding (babies!!!) so I figure that they are happy but it worries me if the death is constant per month. I know one of the deaths on January was due to failed molt because I probably overfed with daily feeding, or due to my daily water changes at the time causing instability. But the others do not seem to be the same case as I have changed to weekly water changes and feeding moderately every 3 days.

 

Ahh huh! 

Cuttlefish bone, that is what is raising your GH. 

Cuttle bone contains calcium carbonate and it's raising your GH. 

Your KH is fine at 1dKH. It's strange that it's so low since cuttlefish bone would raise both KH and GH.

 

Too much calcium carbonate without also supplementing Magnesium is probably making the shrimps shells too hard for moulting. It least it might be making it harder for the shrimps to moult, and if the shrimp is weak, it won't moult properly or exhausts itself trying.

 

The GH of your aged water is perfect. Don't change it. But keep an eye on your TDS value as you do water changes.

Some peat in your change water might help.

More IAL will also help, but it will be slower, and take many leaves. 

A combination of water change, IAL and peat will be best. As long as you have removed that calcium carbonate source (cuttlefish bone).

 

Ok, I removed the cuttlefish bone and did a 10% water change to try to bring down the GH a bit. I heard peat moss softens the water (which would bring down my GH & KH when I should be keeping it stable) and is also unsustainable. Any suggestions for alternatives besides IAL, maybe? I do like leaves in my tank though as it provides the shrimps with biofilm and hiding spots. They love to graze on the leaves!

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jayc

Now taht the cuttlefish bone is out, GH should come down slowly with water changes.

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steffiev

Now taht the cuttlefish bone is out, GH should come down slowly with water changes.

 

The cuttlefish bone was initially added to help with molting but apparently it's not being helpful, lol.

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revolutionhope

I know people here have muxh more experience than me but imo it is easy to overthink/fiddle too much with cherry shrimp. I did no water change just topped up evaporated water for about 5 - 6 months at one point when i was depressed but had no noticable deaths of cherry shrimp or guppies. when i regained interest and learned more i tested parameters with api test kit and found kh of 10+ and gh of between 20 - 30 and my tds was well above 400. pH is normally around 7.6 except for recently when I moved them to a new tank..

ive never had any die-offs during this time and the colony was growing like mad during this whole time. now that the colony is nearly 2 years old I find 1 dead each day or so.. sometimes 2. however this is from a population of well over 3000 which I moved from a 4 doot to a 3 foot tank - it is only ever the oldest ones that die.

the only thing i should point out is that the water I use is not tap water it is spring. when i measured tds of the springwater (which i often did as I used it for hydroponics also) it was usually 150 - 200 .. but I never checked gh or kh of it. I dont think cherries care about hard water.. now I have some new rilli shrimps and I'm trying to be more careful I mix it with rainwater, use a tap conditioner incase of metals and do some tiny 5 - 15% water changes every few days to gradually lower the tds of the tank. I also have a pair of corydoraes and endlers breeding in this tank and the cories are 2 years old and one of them just died a few weeks ago. have not lost any endlers in there.

like I said these guys know a lot more but they do keep more fragile shrimp than cherries and I wonder if it is a problem be too careful / interfering? When I started learning about WP recently I read of people having cherries breeding in tanks of tds 800.

maybe you would be wise to ignore me because ive only a couple of years experience with cherries, and 3 years with fishkeeping in total but I have had zero problems regardless of whether I completely neglect the tank and some people on other forums I have seen advise against water changing with RCS because they want stability above all else.

in truth I honestly have no idea what im talking about but I would still personally believe if it is red cherries you are talking about then imo it is more likely to be either a disease/bug/fungus issue or some pollutant in the water supply or maybe in the environment (airborne) that is causing premature deaths and not something relating to water hardness and tds etc. cherries are tough shrimps and thats why I love them so much and still havent made the step to keeping any shrimp more difficult than them yet.

love n peace.

will

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steffiev

I know people here have muxh more experience than me but imo it is easy to overthink/fiddle too much with cherry shrimp. I did no water change just topped up evaporated water for about 5 - 6 months at one point when i was depressed but had no noticable deaths of cherry shrimp or guppies. when i regained interest and learned more i tested parameters with api test kit and found kh of 10+ and gh of between 20 - 30 and my tds was well above 400. pH is normally around 7.6 except for recently when I moved them to a new tank..

 

Yeah I might be overthinking things and fiddling too much with the tank. It's just that I keep on thinking if they are so hardy then why do they die and how can I prevent it?? I think so far so good though, there's a few berried females in the tank so I'm happy :D

the only thing i should point out is that the water I use is not tap water it is spring. when i measured tds of the springwater (which i often did as I used it for hydroponics also) it was usually 150 - 200 .. but I never checked gh or kh of it. I dont think cherries care about hard water.. now I have some new rilli shrimps and I'm trying to be more careful I mix it with rainwater, use a tap conditioner incase of metals and do some tiny 5 - 15% water changes every few days to gradually lower the tds of the tank. I also have a pair of corydoraes and endlers breeding in this tank and the cories are 2 years old and one of them just died a few weeks ago. have not lost any endlers in there.

 

Are female endlers safe with RCS?

maybe you would be wise to ignore me because ive only a couple of years experience with cherries, and 3 years with fishkeeping in total but I have had zero problems regardless of whether I completely neglect the tank and some people on other forums I have seen advise against water changing with RCS because they want stability above all else.

 

Yeah I was too concerned with water qualityand my previously (too) frequent water changes cost me stability.

in truth I honestly have no idea what im talking about but I would still personally believe if it is red cherries you are talking about then imo it is more likely to be either a disease/bug/fungus issue or some pollutant in the water supply or maybe in the environment (airborne) that is causing premature deaths and not something relating to water hardness and tds etc. cherries are tough shrimps and thats why I love them so much and still havent made the step to keeping any shrimp more difficult than them yet.

 

http://shrimpkeepersforum.com/forum/index.php/topic/5052-shrimp-diseases-and-diagnosis/

I checked the link but my shrimps look generally healthy and do not look like any of the diseases in there. There IS planaria inside, but 1mm size, I doubt it does any damage... No hydra either. I do not have any perfumes or aerosols in my room because of fear of pollutants as well. Frankly I'll be at a loss if there's any more deaths, hahaha.

love n peace.

will

 

Thanks will!

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revolutionhope

both sex of my endlers leave my shrimp alone from what i have seen and I know a lot of people keep endlers with cherries :-) if your tank is nano though it may be a bad idea to breed livebearers because they reproduce very rapidly! you are supposed to keep 2 girls for every boy or else girls will be stressed. if u wanted to keep endlers in your situation I would just get a few males (they wont mind being sexually frustrated) ;-)

love n peace

will

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steffiev

Yeah, I heard it's one of the safe fish to keep with shrimps due to their small size but when I went to a fish store to look at them, the females are huge! It's a nano tank so yeah, probably not a good idea!

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revolutionhope

yep females get big enough to eat any juvenile cherry for sure but they just dont hunt them at least in my experience. have corydorae breeding too and they leave em entirely alone as well :-)

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petfish

Petfish is right. If you can reduce GH from 9 down to 6, it would be more comfortable.

 

What is the GH of your tap water (aged)? 

It would be good to know. If it's already 8 or 9, then more water changes will not help.

 

Oh, and I think Petfish meant to recommend KH at 1 or 2. 

KH 6 is pretty high for shrimp. Unless you know something I don't Petfish?

I am only new to keeping shrimp, not even a year, those are the perameters of CHERRY LANE and i have gone from 10 of each colour morph of cherries to well over 100 of each, i don't play with it to much, (i did at first) i havn't done a w/c in about 5-6 month's but am adding about 11-12 litres of water per day due to evaporation, i have lost maybe 6-10 in this time but i think it is from being group attacked straight after moult, i am noticing plenty of moults, all the time, i may lower KH, but i think if it ain't broke don't mess/fix it. :)

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steffiev

safe range, is not prefered range, a b/nose will live in an african tank but it won't be happy with the water perameters, try GH 6, KH 6, TDS 160-170, PH 6.8-7.2

 

It's my water change day today but I am wondering if it is necessary to water change at all because my TDS is still 130 (instead of 160-170) and if I should let it rise? Or is that a bad idea and I should stick to regularly changing water despite parameters?

 

 

TDS considerations : Water Changes

I now also regard TDS levels as a means of deciding on when to do a water change. A rise in TDS levels means I need to change some water and thereby lower TDS levels. Rapidly increasing TDS levels can also indicate over-feeding, an over-stocked tank, or general bad maintenance. This is a practice often used by Japanese Koi breeders, in fact, it is one of their most important parameters for maintaining healthy Koi and optimal growth.
 

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kizshrimp

Hey petfish, do you run CO2 on "Cherry Lane"? Or is it a phosphate buffered KH generator? I can't run a pH anything like as low as 6.8-7.2 with KH as high as 6. 

 

 if it ain't broke don't mess/fix it. :)

 

Absolutely agree. Same applies to everyone - don't go chasing a specific level if your current conditions are working. Stability is important so make the changes slowly if you feel you must. 

 

 

 

It's my water change day today but I am wondering if it is necessary to water change at all because my TDS is still 130 (instead of 160-170) and if I should let it rise? Or is that a bad idea and I should stick to regularly changing water despite parameters?

 

I think you should do a water change anyway. You can afford to make it a nice small change that doesn't affect parameters too much = less stress to your shrimp. 

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steffiev

 

I think you should do a water change anyway. You can afford to make it a nice small change that doesn't affect parameters too much = less stress to your shrimp. 

 

Yeah I ended up doing a 10% water change since I thought I should prevent nitrate build-up.

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petfish

no co2, don't really know why it sit's at those level's, at first i kept bringing KH down, now i don't as it was to much down/creep up, down/creep up, so for stability i don't mess with it, it's an 800 ltr system, benibachi/ista/coffs harbour mix substrate, i use salty shrimp GH/KH, macrophore, IAL, there is a filter bag with 2ltr of ista red (5.5) in the media area of the sump, plant's and mosses. ??????????????

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Mamashack

I realise this may not be a popular response, but they aren't "just RCS" with no particular preference for water parameters. Yes they can adapt to most parameters as they are the most adaptable of the shrimp we keep, BUT once they are acclimated to a particular environment they need stability. I personally feel that the water changes are somewhat excessive at 30% every 5 days and could be causing stress due to disturbance and change in parameters. 10% weekly is a more realistic regime to promote stability. (I actually do 15% monthly and top up with RO water every couple of days) I aim for 240-250 TDS, GH 7+ but no higher than 9 to avoid moulting issues, pH 7.8, temp under 20 C to avoid issues with bacterial infections, KH 2-3, for pH stability, and nitrates <10 ppm.

If your nitrates are prompting the WC then I would suggest that you are perhaps feeding them too much. They are very good grazers and in a mature tank they will feed off biofilm and any leaf litter unless you have hundreds in there.

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revolutionhope

I agree re stability being important. I have noticed this as well and my research suggests as much too. I have gottwn away without doing WC for as long as 5 months! parameters can be very wide ranging though they are tough!!!

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