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ineke

Don't get me started on that one LOL. I didn't realise I felt so strongly about it but it just poured out and has made me understand a few things that are going on in my shrimp room.!!!!

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NoGi

Maybe I am being over simplistic but I see that we have 2 choices 1) let things deteriorate further or 2) work with the hobby and start to resolve the issues. We may not be able to tackle them all at once but at least start to steer this thing in the right direction. Cherries included, just look at what breeders have done with the naming. We need to pull it back to the basics using scientific names not super cool marketing names just because it may sell better. If we can achieve this then at least we have a better chance of working out lineage.

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revolutionhope

o ye ive seen an lfs selling carbon rili culls as carbon rilis. I think they were just misinformed by the seller tbh but they should take time to research and should know better! at least though with the plan cherries it is just a matter of colour intensity and when buying them the colour is obvious. ive heard of sellers photoshopping their images though. in person sale is the way to go imo unless you havr the certainty of reputation/feedback like we do on skf.

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ineke

Maybe I am being over simplistic but I see that we have 2 choices 1) let things deteriorate further or 2) work with the hobby and start to resolve the issues. We may not be able to tackle them all at once but at least start to steer this thing in the right direction. Cherries included, just look at what breeders have done with the naming. We need to pull it back to the basics using scientific names not super cool marketing names just because it may sell better. If we can achieve this then at least we have a better chance of working out lineage.

It would be a great thing if we could do it Nogi - a huge thing for the shrimp hobby. Yes we could start  and redefine the Neo lines. Try and bring back the names- what are Blue Velvets now anyway ? When I was breeding them they were from Red Rili blue gene- now I haven't got a clue anymore???? But yes it would be good to define each colour and grade. However the Facebook sites are very popular now and as can be seen by the auction sites people are using them to sell rather than a controlled site like SKF. We used to have high selling rates here but now very few for sale ads in comparison. I don't know or think that there is a lot of control over names and definitions of being able to say pure bred on those sites. We used to say TBM and TBMM here but very few people are using those terms on Facebook - mostly people who used to be very active on here.

As you say though it would be good to make a start and perhaps using the information on our own Shrimpkeepers facebook page

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NoGi

Facebook sites will come and go, SKF is here to stay. Once we get agreement on what the correct information is, I can talk to other forums and we can all then progressively try and get facebook sites to publish the correct information. If we can take a scientific approach then there isn’t much room to argue against.

 

Will be on the to do list as soon as I've finished with all the upgrade work.

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Daydream

I have no problem with pinto tigebee mishling or other hybrids of any kind as long as its stipulated when selling.Yes its hard and no-one wants to draw the line.As long as people buy culls,poor quality shrimp,or just mislabled shrimp with a fancy name people will fill the need and sell them.

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jc12

I am probably more old school and prefer 'basic' shrimps.

 

I love CRS, CBS and TBs (which means only WR, RR, KK, Panda and BB). However, with TBs being so expensive, I have mischlings and have since got a few batches of TBMMs (some of them actually look like pintos) which unfortunately looks like they have not survived. I'm still working on survival rate at the moment.

 

Once I can successfully keep and breed a couple generations of TBMMs, I would then go pure TBs, if a trustworthy breeder and/or pure TB still exist by then.

 

I enjoy seeing pintos but don't think I'll ever go down this path, which makes me worry I might unknowingly buy some TB(MM)s with pinto genes in future.

 

My aim is to just focus keeping and breeding quality CRS, CBS and TBs.

 

Perhaps we could set up dedicated breeding groups within SKF which commit and focus on specific shrimps? I know some fish breeders do that... i.e. dedicated species group.

Edited by jc12
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ineke

Sounds like a plan Nogi. Count me in when you need help.

 

Hybrids have given us some beautiful new shrimp and used correctly they will always have a place in the shrimp hobby. I couldn't think of giving up my Tibees. .If and when hybrids are sold or if there is even just a chance they may have a different gene then sellers should be encouraged to let buyers know . I have some shrimp that have so many different genes I couldn't even tell which ones they are now! Some of my shrimp come from BB's "mongrel" tank and have given me some awesome patterns, now I have my own "mongrel" tank and I am often surprised by what comes out of them. Heaven help me if I had to decide what to call them! Mongrel sounds very appropriate to me!

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ineke

jc12 I think if you dig deep enough there are quite a few dedicated pure line breeders on SKF. They just don't post much anymore. It's getting the really pure lines that is becoming the problem I'm afraid and that will be another thing we need to go into- when can we call our line pure? As we have all had to purchase our original shrimp we don't really know how pure that line is now. So how can we define when our line is pure? How many generations of "pure" stock do we need before we can say 100% that our shrimp have no other genes in them. My CRS haven't been crossed with anything for 2 years but I know some of them have come from breeders that had  CBS in with their CRS

There are a lot of things that will need to be added to the criteria of stating that our shrimp are pure. BUT we have to start somewhere and in the long run it can only benefit the hobby. Hopefully others out there will agree and come on board. Maybe the overseas members will know a bit more about guidelines on this subject- or are their lines as mixed as ours?????

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jc12

jc12 I think if you dig deep enough there are quite a few dedicated pure line breeders on SKF. They just don't post much anymore. It's getting the really pure lines that is becoming the problem I'm afraid and that will be another thing we need to go into- when can we call our line pure? As we have all had to purchase our original shrimp we don't really know how pure that line is now. So how can we define when our line is pure? How many generations of "pure" stock do we need before we can say 100% that our shrimp have no other genes in them. My CRS haven't been crossed with anything for 2 years but I know some of them have come from breeders that had  CBS in with their CRS

There are a lot of things that will need to be added to the criteria of stating that our shrimp are pure. BUT we have to start somewhere and in the long run it can only benefit the hobby. Hopefully others out there will agree and come on board. Maybe the overseas members will know a bit more about guidelines on this subject- or are their lines as mixed as ours?????

 

I'm probably never going to call any of my shrimps 'pure' unless they are bought as PRL/PBL from a trustworthy breeder.

 

E.g. for CRS, if I do at some stage sell them, I'll simply say these CRS have been throwing 100% CRS for the last 2 years. Even if I get their quality to a stage where they have good coloured legs, etc, I would still say they are CRS with good colour and throwing 100%. If at some stage a CBS pops out from a batch, then I'll start the clock from then again.

 

Personally, I go for aesthetic good colour and quality rather than fancy names. If a good quality CRS looks like a poor quality PRL, I would buy the cheaper CRS any day. I enjoy looking at beautiful quality shrimps, not so fuss their lineage and names.

 

Call me shallow if you like but looks matter to me in shrimps. Haha.

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ineke

I don't think you are shallow -a really well coloured shrimp by any name is a thing of beauty. That's what we should be aiming for- good colour, sharp whites contrasted by red or black, thick shells and then we can start on the sexy red or black legs. But sadly I love them all good or bad -that's why I have so many!

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OzShrimp

Shitty situation for you mate, i agree there is lots in this hobby out to rip people off. A sign of the world we live in today.

 

Thankfully i only have CRS and they only throw CRS cause i was given some from reputable people on here and won in comp when all mine carcked it.

I am paranoid as all crap when i sell anything because i dont want to unknowingly mislead someone 

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NoGi

Just to be clear, the intention of developing this further isn't to get rid of cross breeds but rather to better inform both buyers and sellers in the hobby. It's also aimed at moving the hobby back to science rather than sales and marketing.

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jc12

I don't think you are shallow -a really well coloured shrimp by any name is a thing of beauty. That's what we should be aiming for- good colour, sharp whites contrasted by red or black, thick shells and then we can start on the sexy red or black legs. But sadly I love them all good or bad -that's why I have so many!

 

I am a background lurker on this forum and I have read you are a shrimp hoarder... a good one so I've read. :-)

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Disciple

I think this is a great topic to discuss.

 

I feel it is important to keep pure TB (or any other breeds). I aim to keep pure BB's and OEBT's. I have recently been "shopping" around for TB's and I feel people don't know the lineage of their shrimp half the time. I was also surprised to learn that you would have to pay a premium on TB's with the "pinto" gene (I would pay more for Pure genes).

 

A friend of mine always told me to go see the shrimp before you spend money on them and I think it has saved me from wasting my money. One particular potential purchase of Blue Bolts, I was told they were pure 100% tb when I got there and have a look into the tank and notice some mischlings. So I ask the question and find out the tank has a mixture of shrimp but he is sure the shrimp I was buying are pure. :special: Unfortunately you can always go see the shrimp before you buy them but I have been lucky enough to find a few great breeders in WA that I would not hesitate to buy their shrimp as I have seen their set ups and have build some trust. I guess I end up paying a bit more but I feel safer that I am getting what I paid for.

 

After reading this thread I am having second thoughts on giving away future culls as I do not want to lower the quality of shrimp available in WA. It is just that I started with culls and have managed to slowly improve them to where they aren't bad anymore haha I remember it was quite hard to get those first shrimp, so I want to help the beginners. Maybe I should wait till my quality is higher before I give the culls away?

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Daydream

Disciple depends on quality of culls.I keep about 10shrimp to breed and 10-20 to sell out of every 200 or so the rest are then classified culls.Most of the time these are feed to fish but on the odd occasion someone will be buying another sp of shrimp from me and Ill pick the best 10 of these and give them away letting them know I classify them as cull grade.Its a surprise for them and me when they belive that these culls are of a higher standard than others are selling.

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Grubs

Every shrimp house needs a large predatory fish for quality control. :shrk:

Edited by Grubs

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ineke

Not all culls are created equal. Sometimes we cull shrimp because they are not what we want in our particular program. You might be breeding SSS CRS and cull any grade below that - it doesn't mean the shrimp isn't any good but of a lower grade than you want. So you need to be clear on what you are classing as culls. Poor colour, poor type , low grade etc. Physical defects -not that I've seen any but we have had some shown on the forum. If breeding Rili  for example then head and tail of good bright colour with NO markings in the clear mid section not the Rilis that are turning up looking like very low grade reds.

Some people want only the absolute best of the best -which is great -but their lower grades might be quite a good shrimp especially for a beginner wanting to try their hand out with shrimp keeping. A true cull is something below standard - so remember when people talk about culls it can be relative to what they are aiming for.

It's also hard to know how to cull. Daydream culls extremely hard but his shrimp are now top quality shrimp. I cull my tanks monthly by taking out anything that is below the grade I want. I just sit in front of the tank and watch the juvies and decide if I like it or not -not very scientific but it works for me. My shrimp are not up to Daydreams standards but I am getting some nicer shrimp now with my method -just too many  : PRETTINESS :

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Disciple

Disciple depends on quality of culls.I keep about 10shrimp to breed and 10-20 to sell out of every 200 or so the rest are then classified culls.Most of the time these are feed to fish but on the odd occasion someone will be buying another sp of shrimp from me and Ill pick the best 10 of these and give them away letting them know I classify them as cull grade.Its a surprise for them and me when they belive that these culls are of a higher standard than others are selling.

Yeah I understand where you are coming from.

I have seen some of the red rili's being sold and was tempted to selling my culls as they look just as good but i decided against it.

You and others made a valid point though culls are culls. It is our responsibility to bring the quality of our shrimp to a higher standard.

I will put into practise only giving away culls that have just missed out being keepers and disposing the rest. You keep the top 10 and top 11 to 30 will be for helping others. Seems like a good formula.

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revolutionhope

noone has mentioned what happens to lfs shrimp and what they think about selling their lower grades to them? personally i do wonder if most lfs purchased shrimp end up being fish food anyways .. or at best end up succumbing to disease or die due to poor aquarium keeping practice?

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revolutionhope

should add. - im only referring to cherries and common natives - this doesnt apply to the fancier shrimp probably!

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ineke

There are a few LFS around now who will only buy certain grades of shrimp. Many are becoming sponsors of FB sites and have tanks specially setup with shrimp soil. There are 2 close to me that have vastly improved their quality of shrimp and now sell lots of shrimp specific items at long last. Hopefully as people become more informed quality will improve even more .

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revolutionhope

hm ofc it will be good if quality improves overall. I do feel that if culls are sold cheaply to lfs then more people may get into the hobby. I know that when I bought shrimp the first time which was from an lfs that had they cost much more than they did I would have just thought "what??? you're asking HOW MUCH for these tiny little things????" lol

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smicko

Hopefully we are getting past the people that are in it for money as things become cheaper.

It's the same with fish and reptiles, when something new comes along the first group of people getting it are either in for the money or love and once the prices drop the people in it for money move on to the next big thing and the ones left clean up the mess.

I was giving culls away when I first got into shrimp but once I found some people onselling my culls as quality and some even using my name to sell them i decided that it was better for the hobby to feed them off. Now I don't give away or sell culls, i don't sell much at all and when I do I sell pairs, never juvies. I'm having too much fun working on my own lines at the moment to care about selling.

Cheers mick

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ineke

Well said Mick. I keep 99% of mine too- I just can't keep any fish to feed my culls to though. I wonder if oil of cloves works for shrimp like it does for fish?. At the moment I can cope with the number of shrimp I have but eventually I won't be able to keep them all. I will have to start selling my better quality shrimp to make room eventually, I think, then again yeah I'm a hoarder!

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