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Disciple

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Hi guys,

 

Got home a few hours ago after taking the kids to the beach.

 

I found 90% of my shrimp hanging off leaves at the surface of my tank. one juvi was dead and a few shrimplets. I am currently doing a 50% water change dripping the water back. The shrimp are starting to swim around and act normally again.

 

I checked the ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites and they all came back as 0. I did the tests a few time now and they all came back as zero. Only things that I have done or added over the last week are:

1. Used internal parasite clear. I found some planaria earlier in the week. I did one dose on Wednesday with a water change and a follow up dose yesterday with a water change after a few hours. I use half dose from what is recommended on the bottle.

2. I add some new shrimp yesterday.

3. My cannister filters flow rate had slowed over the last week. I have given it clean up and its back to normal.

 

I was thinking the issue may have been ammonia due to dead planaria.

 

Any thoughts and advise?

 

I was thinking of doing another 10-20% water change later tonight.

 

Thanks in advance.

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Sorry to hear.

Could be an ammonia spike as you suspect. And water change is the best quick option. Give it another day or two and do another 50% water change.

 

But what's your other parameters like? pH, Temp?

 

It's been hot lately in certain part of the country.

Just want to make sure it's not something else.

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Keep up the water change until all look healthy again. Don't change too much in one hit otherwise you risk a(nother) amonia spike. How did you clean your filter? I usually use the tank water that I siphon out to clean out the filters so that I don't go killing off the good stuff in the media.

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Also think about how much DO (dissolved oxygen) is in the tank. Do you have another form of aeration besides the power filter? Sponge filter? Airstone?

A hot day, with the filter under-performing and no other form of aeration - a recipe for a disaster. This may explain why the shrimp were near the surface (where DO is highest). Warmer water holds less DO.

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Thanks guys,

 

After the water change everything went back to normal. All active and swiming around like nothing happened. Really sucks cause I just saw my first 2 crs shrimplets the other day. I hope they made it.

 

When I got back home the temperature in the tank was 23.5 (it has gotten higher before) which I thought was ok. I did pop the aircon on and didnt get any higher. Yeah I think it hit 29 in Perth today but we have had worse.

 

My ph was either 6.6 or 6.8 quite similar to both colors.

 

Yeah I cleaned my cannister when I did my water change. I clean what I need with the water from the tank. If i need to top up the cannister I use water from the tank.

 

For disolved oxygen I have an oxygenator. I may need to add a sponge filter. I think this may have been the issue today maybe there was a spike in the temp when I was out but came down a bit by the time I got back.

 

I will just keep an eye on it for the next week. Thanks for all the tips.

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Could also be the new shrimps you added the day before. All shrimps carry some form of bacteria (like humans too) and reacts differently to it individually. I had lost 60-70% of my shrimps due to bacterial issues 2 years ago until I got a UV Sterilizer in my system. 

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Just putting this out there ... could juvies and shrimplets be more susceptible to the effects of Internal Parasite Clear because their shells are not as thick yet, and their smaller size?

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Just putting this out there ... could juvies and shrimplets be more susceptible to the effects of Internal Parasite Clear because their shells are not as thick yet, and their smaller size?

Smaller size - maybe. The effects of poisons or toxins can change with age or size of an animal. So a small animal can get killed because the concentration of a toxin/poison exceeds their theshhold, but larger animals survive.

Haven't seen any reports of Internal parasite Clear killing only juveniles.

Edited by fishmosy
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Hi guys,

 

Got home a few hours ago after taking the kids to the beach.

 

I found 90% of my shrimp hanging off leaves at the surface of my tank. one juvi was dead and a few shrimplets. I am currently doing a 50% water change dripping the water back. The shrimp are starting to swim around and act normally again.

 

I checked the ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites and they all came back as 0. I did the tests a few time now and they all came back as zero. Only things that I have done or added over the last week are:

1. Used internal parasite clear. I found some planaria earlier in the week. I did one dose on Wednesday with a water change and a follow up dose yesterday with a water change after a few hours. I use half dose from what is recommended on the bottle.

2. I add some new shrimp yesterday.

3. My cannister filters flow rate had slowed over the last week. I have given it clean up and its back to normal.

 

I was thinking the issue may have been ammonia due to dead planaria.

 

Any thoughts and advise?

 

I was thinking of doing another 10-20% water change later tonight.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

That's the sign of suffocation. This can be lack of O2, too much CO2 or sometimes, too much NO2.

 

Do you aerate your tank with air pump? Do you have a lot of water surface agitation?

 

When is your last water change? What kind of water are you using?

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That's what fishmosy pointed out too.

But disciple uses an oxygenator. Those things pump pure dissolved O2 into the water.

 

It's a sign of suffocation alright, but it might not necessarily be from lack of oxygen, too much CO2 or NO2 necessarily.

It might be the same reaction from the shrimp trying to escape from something unpleasant (toxins). It has no where to go in a tank but up.

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Was the oxygenator out of H2O2?

Ammonia messes with gills, so can cause similar signs to low O2. But readings were zero?

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That's what fishmosy pointed out too.

But disciple uses an oxygenator. Those things pump pure dissolved O2 into the water.

 

It's a sign of suffocation alright, but it might not necessarily be from lack of oxygen, too much CO2 or NO2 necessarily.

It might be the same reaction from the shrimp trying to escape from something unpleasant (toxins). It has no where to go in a tank but up.

 

If assuming the oxydator works, you are right on left with CO2 and NO2.

 

If it is CO2, there will be a sign of pH plunge. Not sure Disciple measured the pH at that time.

 

NO2 will cause such problem only at significantly high level and should not be at an instance everyone is affected. Unless low level of NO2 has been around for quite some time and, gradually damages the gills. However, I think I will rule out NO2.

 

Now left with toxic substances. Ammonia spike is very commonly. However, if the pH is below 6.2 (need Disciple to confirm the pH value), the ammonia will reacts very quickly with other anion/acidic substances to form ammonium that is harmless. Therefore, it should not have such a drastic effect on cycled tank. Unless someone pour ammonia into the tank or there are massive overfeeding for the past few days.

 

The other common killer toxin is hydrogen sulphide (H2S). This toxin is usually form in anaerobic condition, such as under the substrate. If there are no sign of cynobacteria and no one has disturbed the substrate, there should not be high level of H2S.

 

Based on my experience, the symptom of toxicity are usually like the following:

  • Acute (sudden spike) - Shrimp will be dashing around crazy. Even some of them climb up the air-tube or filter pipe trying to escape, there will still be some shrimp dashing around.
  • Chronic (low level and killing slowly) - The shrimp will be just slowly getting retarded and drop dead suddenly with all legs curled up.

We will just have to wait for Disciple to get back to us on the usual pH of his tank (to rule out NH3) and pH of that time (pH plunges will be CO2 and pH raises will be ammonia). :)

Edited by Shrimpy Daddy
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If assuming the oxydator works, you are right on left with CO2 and NO2.

 

If it is CO2, there will be a sign of pH plunge. Not sure Disciple measured the pH at that time.

 

NO2 will cause such problem only at significantly high level and should not be at an instance everyone is affected. Unless low level of NO2 has been around for quite some time and, gradually damages the gills. However, I think I will rule out NO2.

 

Now left with toxic substances. Ammonia spike is very commonly. However, if the pH is below 6.2 (need Disciple to confirm the pH value), the ammonia will reacts very quickly with other anion/acidic substances to form ammonium that is harmless. Therefore, it should not have such a drastic effect on cycled tank. Unless someone pour ammonia into the tank or there are massive overfeeding for the past few days.

 

The other common killer toxin is hydrogen sulphide (H2S). This toxin is usually form in anaerobic condition, such as under the substrate. If there are no sign of cynobacteria and no one has disturbed the substrate, there should not be high level of H2S.

 

Based on my experience, the symptom of toxicity are usually like the following:

  • Acute (sudden spike) - Shrimp will be dashing around crazy. Even some of them climb up the air-tube or filter pipe trying to escape, there will still be some shrimp dashing around.
  • Chronic (low level and killing slowly) - The shrimp will be just slowly getting retarded and drop dead suddenly with all legs curled up.
We will just have to wait for Disciple to get back to us on the usual pH of his tank (to rule out NH3) and pH of that time (pH plunges will be CO2 and pH raises will be ammonia). :)

My experiences with symptoms of toxicity are identical.

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My experiences with symptoms of toxicity are identical.

 

I see. Previously, what kind of toxin you had encountered?

 

Different people may have experience with different toxin before. I will be good if we can pool our knowledge together. :)

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Sorry for the late reply guys. It was hectic at work today. Usually I am lurking around haha.

 

That's the sign of suffocation. This can be lack of O2, too much CO2 or sometimes, too much NO2.

 

Do you aerate your tank with air pump? Do you have a lot of water surface agitation?

 

When is your last water change? What kind of water are you using?

 

Hi Shrimp Daddy,

 

No I dont use a air pump. I usually do have a lot of surface agitation. I have a spray that is just under the surface of the water that shoots the water up to the surface (if that makes sense). I think it agitates the water alot.

 

I usually do two water changes of about 10-15% a week. Before Sunday me last water change was Thursday. I am using RO water and I mineralise it using lowkeys "great mineral type S".

 

That's what fishmosy pointed out too.

But disciple uses an oxygenator. Those things pump pure dissolved O2 into the water.

 

It's a sign of suffocation alright, but it might not necessarily be from lack of oxygen, too much CO2 or NO2 necessarily.

It might be the same reaction from the shrimp trying to escape from something unpleasant (toxins). It has no where to go in a tank but up.

Thanks for the contribution Jayc,

 

would it make a difference how far I put the vials for my test into the water? I only took the water from the top third? should I have put the vial deeper maybe?

 

Was the oxygenator out of H2O2?

Ammonia messes with gills, so can cause similar signs to low O2. But readings were zero?

Hey Fishmosy,

 

Yeah when I first did the tests I was surprised it was zero. so i did it a second time then a third just to make sure. The kit is 2 months old. I made sure i shook the bottles up.

 

I just filled up the oxygenator during my thursday water change.

 

If assuming the oxydator works, you are right on left with CO2 and NO2.

 

If it is CO2, there will be a sign of pH plunge. Not sure Disciple measured the pH at that time.

 

NO2 will cause such problem only at significantly high level and should not be at an instance everyone is affected. Unless low level of NO2 has been around for quite some time and, gradually damages the gills. However, I think I will rule out NO2.

 

Now left with toxic substances. Ammonia spike is very commonly. However, if the pH is below 6.2 (need Disciple to confirm the pH value), the ammonia will reacts very quickly with other anion/acidic substances to form ammonium that is harmless. Therefore, it should not have such a drastic effect on cycled tank. Unless someone pour ammonia into the tank or there are massive overfeeding for the past few days.

 

The other common killer toxin is hydrogen sulphide (H2S). This toxin is usually form in anaerobic condition, such as under the substrate. If there are no sign of cynobacteria and no one has disturbed the substrate, there should not be high level of H2S.

 

Based on my experience, the symptom of toxicity are usually like the following:

  • Acute (sudden spike) - Shrimp will be dashing around crazy. Even some of them climb up the air-tube or filter pipe trying to escape, there will still be some shrimp dashing around.
  • Chronic (low level and killing slowly) - The shrimp will be just slowly getting retarded and drop dead suddenly with all legs curled up.

We will just have to wait for Disciple to get back to us on the usual pH of his tank (to rule out NH3) and pH of that time (pH plunges will be CO2 and pH raises will be ammonia). :)

 

My usual PH was about 6.6-6.8 and when i tested it was the same.

 

Another thing i did notice was that all the snails where on the aquarium glass. I was able to scoop up heaps lol. I hope I have answered your questions. I was just a bit confused with the situation but I think you have made me feel like I have thought of most things.

 

Thanks for all the help much appreciated. I just want to make sure I dont make the same mistake. Cheers.

 

I just did another set of tests and everything is ok. Shrimps are active and back to normal. I havent lost anymore except my second berried CRS must have dropped her eggs or is hiding really well.

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Lowkey Great Mineral does not contain carbonate, thus it is not CO2 introduced by WC. Especially, you last did it on Thu.

 

For the pH, are you using chemical test kit, test strip or pH pen/probe? If it is not pH pen/probe, the pH measured may not be accurate.

 

"Another thing i did notice was that all the snails where on the aquarium glass. I was able to scoop up heaps lol. " <--- This really sound like aeration problem. Not sure you have notice, you should see bunch of white worms crawling up the tank too. Actually, how long have you set up this tank and do you see your tank getting cloudy for the past one week?

 

Last time, I have this 60cm tank that is not using air-pump, occasionally have the same problem you encountered. As such, I always keep at least a bottle of 3% concentration H2O2 at home and a spare air-pump + air-stone. Whenever such incident happen, I will quickly dose 1ml of H2O2 for every 10L of water. Put in the air-stone and aerate the water. Usually, you will see the effect within 5 to 10 mins. Even it is not O2 problem, the temporary hyper-oxygenation of water will de-stress the shrimp. This will buy you plenty of time to slowly investigate the issue. Performing water change while they are stressed may kill even more shrimps, unless you are very sure is toxic.

 

Strangely, this problem always strike every now and then. But after I put in the air-stone permanently, it never happens again. Most of my tanks have sump tank and each of them have permanent air-pump + air-stone in it, except for this one. I'm not sure what really is causing it but permanent air-pump + air-stone did help in my case. 

Edited by Shrimpy Daddy
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It's got to be the Internal Parasite Clear. That's the only thing that you seem to have done recently to the tank that is out of the norm.

Despite using half dose, it could still have been miscalculated. 

Despite a few people having tested it, it's not 100% guaranteed to not kill juvies or shrimplets. It is lethal to hydra and planaria afterall.

 

We might need to be careful to inform others using this product to include a mandatory water change after it has taken effect in killing hydra/planaria.

Leaving your shrimps to soak in the water with Internal Parasite Clear just means they are exposed to the toxins for longer.

You did a water change after each dose, but that might not have been enough water changed.

Two half doses (Wed and then another one on Sunday) with small water changes might still equal 75% dose. 

Might be better to have half dosed and not dose until another week later. With a 50% water change in between to reduce the amount already in the tank.

Edited by jayc
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I missed out that point in the first post. This sort of products will kill bacteria too. The tank's eco-system might be in a mess now. 

 

When nitrobacter and nitrosoma is not doing their job, aerobic bacteria will bloom.

 

I think this is a chain of event causes all these and the shrimps might be killed by many factors. -___-"

 

I guess jayc has closed this case. ;)

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I see. Previously, what kind of toxin you had encountered?

 

Different people may have experience with different toxin before. I will be good if we can pool our knowledge together. :)

The acute deaths were related to the use of cooking spray (tank on bench near kitchen. Luckily large water change solved the problem.

The chronic deaths were related to the use of formalin based anti-parasite for treating fish. I thought the shrimp were good after the first dose, but the schedule required repeated doses over a series of days to weeks. Shrimp died off with the symptoms you described after the third or fourth dose.

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Formalin based? Holy.... That's pretty strong stuffs. The only formalin derived product I know that is shrimp safe is Seachem Excel.

 

I do know many people encountered copper and insecticide poisoning. Not sure what kind of symptoms will those give.

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Lowkey Great Mineral does not contain carbonate, thus it is not CO2 introduced by WC. Especially, you last did it on Thu.

 

For the pH, are you using chemical test kit, test strip or pH pen/probe? If it is not pH pen/probe, the pH measured may not be accurate.

 

"Another thing i did notice was that all the snails where on the aquarium glass. I was able to scoop up heaps lol. " <--- This really sound like aeration problem. Not sure you have notice, you should see bunch of white worms crawling up the tank too. Actually, how long have you set up this tank and do you see your tank getting cloudy for the past one week?

 

Last time, I have this 60cm tank that is not using air-pump, occasionally have the same problem you encountered. As such, I always keep at least a bottle of 3% concentration H2O2 at home and a spare air-pump + air-stone. Whenever such incident happen, I will quickly dose 1ml of H2O2 for every 10L of water. Put in the air-stone and aerate the water. Usually, you will see the effect within 5 to 10 mins. Even it is not O2 problem, the temporary hyper-oxygenation of water will de-stress the shrimp. This will buy you plenty of time to slowly investigate the issue. Performing water change while they are stressed may kill even more shrimps, unless you are very sure is toxic.

 

Strangely, this problem always strike every now and then. But after I put in the air-stone permanently, it never happens again. Most of my tanks have sump tank and each of them have permanent air-pump + air-stone in it, except for this one. I'm not sure what really is causing it but permanent air-pump + air-stone did help in my case. 

I did see worms crawling up the glass too.

 

My tank was cloudy after the second dose of IPC and was sort of still cloudy after the water change.

 

I dont have a airstone cause the wife doesnt like the noise but I think I will get one now just incase.

 

Thanks again for the advise shrimp daddy.

 

It's got to be the Internal Parasite Clear. That's the only thing that you seem to have done recently to the tank that is out of the norm.

Despite using half dose, it could still have been miscalculated. 

Despite a few people having tested it, it's not 100% guaranteed to not kill juvies or shrimplets. It is lethal to hydra and planaria afterall.

 

We might need to be careful to inform others using this product to include a mandatory water change after it has taken effect in killing hydra/planaria.

Leaving your shrimps to soak in the water with Internal Parasite Clear just means they are exposed to the toxins for longer.

You did a water change after each dose, but that might not have been enough water changed.

Two half doses (Wed and then another one on Sunday) with small water changes might still equal 75% dose. 

Might be better to have half dosed and not dose until another week later. With a 50% water change in between to reduce the amount already in the tank.

 

I think I will be a bit more careful about this in the future. I was so paranoid about the planaria getting at my new crs shrimplet I probably ended up killing them with the IPC instead.

 

Lesson learnt.

 

Thanks for the diagnosis Jayc.

 

I have a feeling it is a combination of a few things but considering it could have been worse I am happy I only lost a juvi and a few shrimplets. Also I hope a that other newbies will see all your opinions and learn as much as I did.

 

Thanks guys.

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You are welcome.

 

"My tank was cloudy after the second dose of IPC and was sort of still cloudy after the water change." <--- This is a sign of you killed all the good bacteria. Whenever you have aerobic bacteria bloom, you need to quickly add air-pump; they suck oxygen or release CO2 pretty fast when lights are off. The bloom also signify your anaerobic bacteria is not keeping up with the work, which means ammonium or other toxic spike will come soon. 

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You are welcome.

 

"My tank was cloudy after the second dose of IPC and was sort of still cloudy after the water change." <--- This is a sign of you killed all the good bacteria. Whenever you have aerobic bacteria bloom, you need to quickly add air-pump; they suck oxygen or release CO2 pretty fast when lights are off. The bloom also signify your anaerobic bacteria is not keeping up with the work, which means ammonium or other toxic spike will come soon. 

I think I'll use quarter dose IPC next time and use it no more than once a week :S

 

I feel I have learnt a lot today.

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Last advise for you. Don't use IPC or any treatment chemical with shrimps. They don't really like it.

 

What you should do next time is to treat any plants and layout material first (usually takes about a week) before putting into the tank. If possible, use something that is more natural and/or able to be neutralise easily. One good alternative will be dilute acid that is at pH 3 to 4. In my experience with acid treatment, it will be able to remove planaria, hydra, algae and adult snails. However, they don't kill snails' and critters' eggs. 

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Last advise for you. Don't use IPC or any treatment chemical with shrimps. They don't really like it.

 

What you should do next time is to treat any plants and layout material first (usually takes about a week) before putting into the tank. If possible, use something that is more natural and/or able to be neutralise easily. One good alternative will be dilute acid that is at pH 3 to 4. In my experience with acid treatment, it will be able to remove planaria, hydra, algae and adult snails. However, they don't kill snails' and critters' eggs. 

Ok thanks Shrimpy Daddy.

 

I am planning a new step up for the new year and I will make sure I treat any plants and materials before I use them.

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