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endlerboy

Prime and SHRIMP and sudden deaths on water changes.... Possible cause????

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endlerboy

Hi everyone I have seen this in many different places even here people posting about shrimp dieing after water changes and rushing to the top of tanks etc... People asking for help etc pictures etc.... Now after doing something different here a couple months back on the water changes I do. I noticed something in my tanks from the shrimp to the fish catfish rainbows etc they where not acting normal after a water change compared to how they use to do them.... then if hit ME there must be something to do with the water conditioner which in my case is PRIME....

What I use to do as a water change was tub the water treat then let sit for a few hours then add to the tank.... That worked well......

Then I changed to a tap to tank method hose straight to tank and add the prime straight to the tank.... <<<< started to have problems of fish acting weird after their water changes and shrimp deaths.....

I could not but my finger on it for a while on what was going on... Until it hit me the water change itself and what was different there.... Anyways did a bit of research on prime and alarm bells when off on what was causing the problem after reading.

Prime is sold and marketed as a water conditioner chlorine remove/reducer and ammonia/ remover reducer most of you who know me or heard me speak are well aware on my stance on being anti-additive. The best fix for water quality issues is not to add something else that masks the problem but rather remove the problem itself. Everyone looks for the quick fix to solve issues and the aquarium hobby is no exception. So what is Prime – I acquired the MSDS sheet that I will attach to this post for those who want to look at it. According to the MSDS prime is an aqueous solution of complexed hydrosulfite salts.

What is Hydrosulfite

Sodium Hydrosulfite is a very strong reducing agent. A reducing agent is the opposite of an oxidant as it will reduce and or remove any oxidant such as chlorine, ozone, chlorine dioxide, just to name a few it will also remove oxygen. Sodium Hydrosulfite is a versatile chemical that's used in the manufacture of a variety of products we all use every day, from photographic film to wine; from fine writing papers to leather goods; from colored fabrics to metal recovery.

One of the primary uses for Sodium Hydrosulfite is used as a reducing agent in dying applications. It undergoes reduction reaction with water-insoluble vat dye and sulfur dye to form water-soluble alkali metal salt of the dye (leuco form ) so that they have affinity for the textile fiber. The reductive decomposition of the excessive dye by Sodium Hydrosulfite improves the color fastness. Sodium Hydrosulfite's reduction reaction removes residual oxide and wrong pigments. Sodium Hydrosulfite is a reductive bleaching agent.

After reading through this something caught my eye straight up " it will also remove oxygen"

Off this I went hmmmmmmmmmmm so me using prime in a different way in past was not allowing the water to get O2.... After running a few tests here I have found when water is not sat for a few hours the shrimp fish went stupid..... But when sat they acted normal.... Now I got thinking how would this effect us on water changes quite easy..... It would swing the O2 levels fast in our tanks and send the shrimp stupid and poss death due to the lack of O2..... Until it balance back out....

I am throwing this out there for people to comment on and see if anyone has lost shrimp using prime and how they were doing the water changes if they were letting the water sit or not.... Cause if my hunch is right using prime and not letting it sit could be killing people shrimp.....

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Wraithie

You will find that the majority of keepers here WONT be using Prime as they dont use tap water for their shrimp full stop (beyond red cherries many are converted to RO water and salty shrimp).For shrimpkeeping, adding Prime to the water is not an improvement as it will increase TDS and that in itself is a significant harm to most shrimp beyond RCS (of course there will always be exceptions).That being said, i kept RCS and have kept fish for years using Prime without the problems described above. I have a different conditioner that i use at work and found that any time i did a WC my guppies would hide and behave strangely for the rest of the day, what i found was that it wasnt the additive, but the rate of adding the water to the tank that was causing shock. By adding the new water at a much slower rate, the fish were able to acclimate without stress.I realise everyone has different experiences, but based on mine, i wouldnt be blaming Prime for strange behaviours, i would be looking at temp differences, TDS changes, pH alterations. Just recently i medicated a tank of crystals, natives and black cherries during which i added Prime each night to counteract any possible Ammonia spikes, i had no negative effects on shrimp, berried mums or shrimplets.

Then I changed to a tap to tank method hose straight to tank and add the prime straight to the tank.... <<<< started to have problems of fish acting weird after their water changes and shrimp deaths..
This is problematic, by adding the water to the tank and then treating with Prime in the tank, you are exposing your fish and shrimp to the Chlorine, Ammonia etc etc that is in the tap before it is able to be inactivated by the Prime(it doesnt happen immediately) and due to the water movement the concentration of Prime at the hose end is going to be the lowest in the whole tank. For my fish I always use tap water into a bucket, treat with Prime, make sure its mixed and then add to the tank (within a few minutes). I suggest you try something like this, and also adding the water more slowly depending on the total volume of your tank and how much you are changing.

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2OFUS

Mate ofcourse you are going to have deaths if you are adding straight tap water then prime

always age your water

i have been using prime for along time without dramas

that includes doing the "from tap to tank method" on the 3ft Bristlenose and cherrys tank

I even add Afew drops to my RO water (just Incase)

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endlerboy

I have just found this on they web site raise eye lids ???? hmmm it seems seachem are well aware of the issue of their product via this tech reply on their forum

Old 06-10-2013, 10:46

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Re: Prime Overdose?

Thanks for your question, Aquaworld. As far as direct toxicity, overdosing Prime isn't any concern. It won't poison your fish. It is a reducing agent, so what can cause an issue when over-dosed is that if there aren't enough other things in the water to react with, like nitrogenous waste or chlorine, it will react with and reduce oxygen. This can suffocate the inhabitants of your tank.

It sounds like you used it in an aquarium which doesn't have livestock yet, in which case it poses no danger. Prime only stays active in a system for about 48 hours.

Detailed directions for dosing Prime can be found here:http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=7050

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endlerboy

So what the tech basically saying there if there low nitrogenous waste or chlorine it will then go after the O2 in the tank.... Now most of us have a low nitrogenous waste in shrimp tanks and heavy plants Now of that fact that would be huge problems for tap water keepers that do weekly changes or top ups......

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Hughes78

Hi matey I've been using prime for ages on a variety of tanks and never had the issues that you are having but I don't top tank up then add prime ( how do you know how much water you are adding) I always fill a 20 lt bucket add prime stir then put in tank that way you can dose correctly I always add 1 cap per 20 lt bucket. I don't think it's the product more so the method. I think prime is the best for removing chlorine etc , but ro unit is the best.

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BlueBolts

Great post, and thanks for the time to write and research this issue...

YES, there's been many threads on shrimps near the surface, gasping, and/or jumping out of tanks...etc, and IMHO, it's a WP/WQ issue......02 is SO critical, thus your comments do ring true. I know several hobbyist who use tap water, would add the recommended dose, and aerate it over night, before using it for WC, or top ups.....

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endlerboy

Hughes78 right to answer this one if you follow the bottle to the tee it tells you to dose the whole tank volume so there no need to work out the water been taken out vs what put back in.... Of the product this method is meant to be safe <<<< stress the words safe..... Now to the other part lol try doing that with a 6 x 2 x 2 with buckets you would be there all day. To the other post the prime goes in prior to the water been added not after again off their directions. Now I highlighting this as it appears to be an issue that a few have had and opened my eye and has gone back to the other method on the shrimp tanks of tub the water treat then let sit for a few hours then add to the tank after I was able to put my finger on what was going on. But on saying that the underlay issue still there if the water is NOT sat as the prime in tap water would ATTACK the O2 levels in the water as there NO waste etc for it to hit. Now this would play a huge factor in heavy planted tanks and low nitrates as when you put that water to the tank you are dropping the O2 lvls back in the tank hence the same thing would be happening in a bucket when treated then added to the tank straight up.... As there is a few examples of it around the place of tap prime and bucket method apply in heavy planted tanks and shrimp loses within 48 hours of the water change for no reason eg water para come back normal etc and the deaths stop in that 1st 24-48 hrs.... Now there is only 1 common thing in what I have seen 1st hand and the many examples of it and use of prime and NOT letting that water sit the shrimp go crazy in the tank to the point they either gasping, and/or jumping out of tanks...

Directions off the bottle

Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. This removes approximately 1 mg/L ammonia, 4 mg/L chloramine, or 5 mg/L chlorine. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

Ps Only putting this out there as a possible cause to this problem on the WC with tap water after seeing it here 1st hand and see other posts around the traps calling for help after a WC and deaths and crazy shrimp.... Also to find out if there is a pattern here re PRIME and W/C etc and a straight up water change in low nitrate tanks and is not spring chicken as a fish keeper here as has been keeping them for over 20 years but after that sight change in routine it was eye opening what happened with both the fish and shrimp by NOT letting that water age for a few hours prior to adding to the tanks....

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Squiggle

I have been using prime for about 15-20yrs & the stuff is amazing, I've always done the hose to tank method of WC & added the Prime while the water is going in & I've never had a problem with fish dying. I even do a double dose on normal WC's & still no deaths. I have however noticed the same thing you are talking about probably 10-15yrs ago & did the same pondering & did some testing. I found it was the sudden change in water temp that made the fish sluggish & stay on the bottom. :encouragement:

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blindfisherman
Hi matey I've been using prime for ages on a variety of tanks and never had the issues that you are having but I don't top tank up then add prime ( how do you know how much water you are adding) I always fill a 20 lt bucket add prime stir then put in tank that way you can dose correctly I always add 1 cap per 20 lt bucket. I don't think it's the product more so the method. I think prime is the best for removing chlorine etc ' date= but ro unit is the best.

You use 1 cap full per bucket?

The directions say one cap full per 200 L :confused:

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2OFUS

I believe it's 2 drops every 4 litres ????

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blindfisherman
I believe it's 2 drops every 4 litres ????

Based on the rule of 20 drops in a mL that is right.

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endlerboy
Based on the rule of 20 drops in a mL that is right.

what i think they are getting at is the huge overdose buddy 1 cap to 20 lt that 10 times the recommend dose rate.... As the cap with prime is 5ml which does 200 lts so for 20 lts you should be using only 0.5 of a ml.... And I surprised you still have shrimp or fish swimming as depending on the size of the tank and amount you change that O D may be even higher eg if you change 40 lts you would be overdosing x20 times the dose rate the only thing that would be saving ya if there was a very good/high nitrate reading in the tank for it to bind too.... or if you were only do top ups then that would save ya due to less water going in and the tank would be able to take the rest up.... but if a normal 25 percent water change that cutting a real fine line as that would pushing a x 5 OD in a 50 lt tank with a 10 lt water change and the dose for "To detoxify nitrite in an emergency' date= up to 5 times normal dose may be used"

And I highly doubt a shrimp tank could take the x 5 dose without wiping the shrimp out based on what i have seen here with a huge tank dose with fish

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blindfisherman
what i think they are getting at is the huge overdose buddy 1 cap to 20 lt that 10 times the recommend dose rate.... As the cap with prime is 5ml which does 200 lts so for 20 lts you should be using only 0.5 of a ml.... And I surprised you still have shrimp or fish swimming as depending on the size of the tank and amount you change that O D may be even higher eg if you change 40 lts you would be overdosing x20 times the dose rate the only thing that would be saving ya if there was a very good/high nitrate reading in the tank for it to bind too....

You realise I was quoting someone else? And that isnt what I do..

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jayc

Stopped using Prime when I found a better product.

Supachlor

The rest of my Prime is now reduced to the task of rinsing off plants after an algae treatment.

I always only dose enough for the water changed, not the whole tank.

Why would you need to, if the water in the tank is already good?

You save on the amount of Prime used and is less stressful for your tank livestock.

I use RO or rainwater now, so Supachlor or Prime isn't used much.

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endlerboy
You realise I was quoting someone else? And that isnt what I do..
sorry blindfisherman it picked the the wrong quote... And yep noticed you also picked the fact up :)

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endlerboy

Just an update on this after having a chat to my local fish shop it appears seachem well aware of the issue that prime causes shrimp and few other thing as he was at a product show on friday in MELB and the seachem rep brought up that seachem have a new product that is made for shrimp and planted tanks in the way of a water conditioner..... And have told the local fish owner to tell customers to use the shrimp version over prime that coming on the market. But not sure when it will be hitting the selves. Just through I would put this out there after the chat with my local today (sat afternoon) on this issue.

Which I found interesting that seacheam is making doing a shrimp water condition or why would they been bring out a shrimp version of they water condition/ager

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mr_c265

Prime removing oxygen is the least of your worries if you are placing a hose directly into the tank.

Prime has a much higher affinity for Chlorine and Chloramines than it does for Oxygen. Sulfite's are reducing agents, prime also contains something that will bind to Ammonia by way of protonation to reduce toxicity.

When you add a hose directly to the tank, you are firstly introducing chlorine and ammonium directly into the water, which will change the TDS and start to cause osmosis in your shrimps cells, remember the drip method when introducing new shrimp? The purpose of this is to slowly acclimitize your shrimp to the new water and prevent massive changes in cell pressures. Then you add the dosage of prime, which again will cause Osmosis and exert Osmotic pressure as it strips the Chlorine and Ammonium and binds to it.

Do it in a bucket or buy a water tank and do 800L at a time.

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blackcat

The rest of my Prime is now reduced to the task of rinsing off plants after an algae treatment.

.

I have hair algae how do I treat I think ? Can u teach me the process ? Pleaaaassseeeee its drivibg me nuts :-(

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DeagonTheo

If you're keeping a lot of shrimp you shouldn't be having problems with hair algae, I can't get enough to feed mine, especially Cherry Shrimp.

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Squiggle

Not all shrimp eat hair algae, my Caridina's won't touch the stuff. :dejection:

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DeagonTheo

I've only got Cherry Shrimp and CRS and they both devour it like crazy, as soon as I throw some in they're onto it. I've got a tank just to grow it so I can feed it to them.

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Hughes78

I was doing a 20lt water change on a 4ft heavily planted shrimp tank and my Cichilid tank and didn't lose any fish or shrimp ( cherry shrimp) also had a few crs and CBS and didnt lose anything done it for about 2-3 yrs worked fine . But my water is full of chemicals though . Was just stating what I was doing and the prime worked fine for me .

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DeagonTheo

Hey Squiggle here's my Caradina attacking hair algae, they sulk until I feed it to them, if you look hard you can even see a couple of day old shrimplet running towards it

post-3614-139909854453_thumb.jpg

post-3614-139909854456_thumb.jpg

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Squiggle

Your a lucky man dude, can't get mine to even look at the stuff. :dejection:

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