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Update $ Guide

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ninja

Yep agree!

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KiwiBigD
But a mischling shrimplet from say an f6 mischling x f6 mischling cross will still have a high %TB in it. Im not sure of precisely how it works' date=' but the shrimplet couldn't be sold as an f6 or higher mischling certainly, however, it is still a mischling.[/quote']

Agree with you completely Torface, the percentages from say an F6 x F6 mishling which theoretically at that stage equate to roughly 98% x 98% which comes back to about 96% which theoretically is F5 by percentage. I don't know what you would call it but personally if I get them to that high then I'm quite happy keeping those shrimplets in my own tank and any potential TBs from it I'd also keep seperately, otherwise like I'm currently doing the mishlings I've had from F4 x F4 have gone into a mixed high grade tank. Once I've got the next stand in place any of those shrimplets will end up being used for experimentation, so many combinations to test and try.

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hsoje

Question... what would you price/grade a TBMM X TBMM?

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MrShrimp

Thanks for your time a effort BB. Oh sorry , I mean " green hulk wannabe" :)

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Ace027

Will you guys consider the offspring of TBM x TBM pure? or at what generation we can call them pure.

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hsoje

im starting to think the general consensus is that pure meaning there breeding true 100% of the time. or a more reasonable estimate saying 90% breeding true with the occasional wild throw back?

Difficult topic i know!!!

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BlueBolts
Will you guys consider the offspring of TBM x TBM pure? or at what generation we can call them pure.

Personally, I wouldn't. If The TBMF1 (LOL, ninja would like that abbreviation) x with a TB = 90+% TB, then you're getting there. hsoje is right, a difficult topic, and one that can be discussed forever, but the price guide is just to ensure the main stream shrimps have a indicative $, and then the price of TB's, Tigers their variants etc... Can remain subjective, and at a one market value.

just thoughts......

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Ace027

Yes its a difficult topic Marcus... like opening a can of worm... and base on what i have read before crossing TB to mischling strengthen their bloodline, now its dilluting them... what is really true? How come international forum does not talk about TBM as unpure? just my 2c :)

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ninja

Yes I want to know the answer to that question too?

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BlueBolts

There perhaps two main reasons...

1. TB's are from such selective gene pool, that even international breeders do x back to mishlings.... Pics/video's of these tanks are often seen with TB's & Mish...

2. We have such a small gene pool of TB genetics, plus the original cost of TB's, makes our gene pool very in-bred, thus x with mishlings is perhaps our salvation, but there comes a point of time where purity matters.....just like CRS low grade to high grade, then to PRL's. at one stage many hobbyist were using SW/GB to get higher grades, then realise it was a bad idea, now all the rage is to attain purity, with PRL's in mind.

Why international forums don't discuss this, I'm not sure. Perhaps we can get imke to comments and point us a at the right direction here ?

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Ace027

I can see what you mean with CRS and CBS losing its quality when bred with GB or SW. But I dont see that in TB, the quality is always good even from Misch x Misch, we just get different variation. My opinion is calling TBM unpure will drive breeders away from mischlings and therefore weakening the TB genes in Oz, mischlings will be worthless and will just be thrown in CRS and CBS tanks ruining its line and we will all end up with crystals that actually mischlings that breeds TB. Again JMHO.

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mr_c265
But a mischling shrimplet from say an f6 mischling x f6 mischling cross will still have a high %TB in it. Im not sure of precisely how it works' date=' but the shrimplet couldn't be sold as an f6 or higher mischling certainly, however, it is still a mischling.[/quote']That isn't always correct. If it is following punnet squares with the TB gene as recessive, then there is a chance that the juvies will be Mischlings and a chance that they will be plain CRS/CBS, the issue is that as the CRS/CBS phenotype is dominant, the shrimp will all appear as CRS or CBS, hence the issue, it is impossible to tell which is which. With one Mischling, there is a chance it will have no TB alleles in it. Cross that "Mischling" with a Mischling (either a real mischling or another CRS/CBS that has come about from a Mischling cross), there is little to no chance of Mischlings, no chance of TB and a large chance of CRS/CBS. The issue compounds if you then cross that one again.It depends on what theory people believe that Crystal Shrimp genetics follows. With basic Mendelian genetics, there is no chance of a TBM x TBM (assuming the TB phenotype is recessive), hence why some may choose not to discuss it, but this may not be an ideal case to follow Mendelian rules.

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newbreed
How long before we have TBMOEBTP' date=' lol?[/quote']

?? What does the P at the end stand for? And can I put in dibs for one in the future?! ;)

Great work BB, the pricing looks good from my perspective!

it is always buyer beware but it can't hurt to view parents of any shrimp you purchase!

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BlueBolts

This is a great discussion, as I can only comment on my personal experience and with what I've obtain via www :-(

I do agree with Chi, on the pheno of CRS/CBS, and the x's are not just a dilution in the TB genetics, but a hit/miss as well...I'm not 100% sure.

I've asked Imke to comment on this thread. Be great for other experience breeders to also add to this conversations, and whether we agree to disagree, and/or find some common ground, as it would be a great step for us to understand it all much better.

Nevertheless, this is a discussion of opinions, so great to maintain this level of comments, and keep it all educational. I think these type of conversations are not discussed openly internationally and on ther forums becomes of ego's and members not wanting to be shot down....but it doesn't happen at SKF. :-)

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ninja
?? What does the P at the end stand for? And can I put in dibs for one in the future?! ;)

P for Pinto of course!

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Squiggle

Awesome thread BB & I have to agree that this is an incredibly informative & very civil discussion, well done everyone! It's great to see everyone's ideas, theories & questions voiced so eloquently :encouragement:

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ninja

. I think these type of conversations are not discussed openly internationally and on ther forums becomes of ego's and members not wanting to be shot down....but it doesn't happen at SKF. :-)[/quote

Yes it does, what are all those pale, sickly, greenie, fungus infected, crossbreed pics doing on the bottom of your posts, GHW?

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newbreed
. I think these type of conversations are not discussed openly internationally and on ther forums becomes of ego's and members not wanting to be shot down....but it doesn't happen at SKF. :-)[/quote

Yes it does' date= what are all those pale, sickly, greenie, fungus infected, crossbreed pics doing on the bottom of your posts, GHW?

Just cos they're not black!! Sheesh

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ninja
Just cos they're not black!! Sheesh

Yeah, must be crosses?

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BlueBolts

Steady on..... Leave my GH's alone....they're sacred !

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KiwiBigD
Further on this topic ......

I think the REALLY important discussion needs to be About Mishling X Mishling - obviously you get some TBMM (and that has been delt with price wise and you just have to trust the seller) but the pheno-typical CRS/CBS/SW/Golden young surely can not still be sold as Michlings?

I go back to personally trusting and knowing the seller. I think we really need to differentiate the parentage but from my perspective having had both TBs and Mishlings from a TB x TB cross I'm putting the entire lot aside, I can't and don't trust the genetics in these as its obviously not pure. A couple of the shrimplets I'm gutted about as they're exactly what I've been aiming for and wanting to develop my numbers with but I'm not prepared to damage my TB genetics so at the moment they're put aside until I've got a spare tank to cross and see what does develop, not something I wanted to happen and wouldn't want for anybody else, its really annoying!

Mishlings again comes down to knowing the seller and trusting them. If they're new on the scene then are they really Mishlings? Or are they CBS or CRSs just being sold as that to generate extra income? Unfortunately I can see it being people that are new to shrimp keeping that are going to get fleeced, you can only do so much on a forum when there are other sources for selling.

For myself where I've had a Mishling from a Mishling x Mishling drop they'll end up in with my CBS and CRSs eventually, again once the next rack has gone in. I'll use those and the Mishling males to improve my lower CRS and CBS lines while working on a PBL or PRL. And no, I'm nowhere near that quality but its a long slow drawn out process and I need more tanks!

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BlueBolts
I can see what you mean with CRS and CBS losing its quality when bred with GB or SW. But I dont see that in TB' date=' the quality is always good even from Misch x Misch, we just get different variation. My opinion is calling TBM unpure will drive breeders away from mischlings and therefore weakening the TB genes in Oz, mischlings will be worthless and will just be thrown in CRS and CBS tanks ruining its line and we will all end up with crystals that actually mischlings that breeds TB. Again JMHO.[/quote']

I'd say there's difference in grades / quality of TB's, whether ..

1. Pattern (A Grade, Hino..etc)

th_null-3-9.jpgth_null-8-6.jpg

2. Colouration/Depth

th_C6185507-0892-4D83-BD3C-3B66FD3AD084-10173-00000DCE6D84A258.jpg vs th_null-2-4.jpg

3. Leg Colours

th_1624310A-7F45-4FF8-AC9C-390CC8AB2D0F-8305-0000080CA0744372.jpg vs th_null-10-4.jpg

Selective breeding TB's are identical to cherries, CRS, tigers etc... As we get more educated with the quality and become specific/fussy, we will quickly acquaint our selves with these differences. i.e. 3-4 years ago a CRS SSS was $600, but in today standards, that identical shrimp would be regarded as an absolute cull.

IMO, TB's from MishxMish will/may show a lower "grade", but even if it doesn't, the suggestion of a lower $ is due to the genetic TB strength it may carry, as if you X it with a true TB, you'll get a lower percentage of TB shrimplets. TBM or TBMM is unpure from the genetic perspective, and as many serious fish, shrimp, bird breeders do, unfortunately there's a culling process. In fact, i believe having this differentiation will encourage hobbyist to breed quality, and not qty, as the rewards of selective breeding should be rewarded.

The price guide is just an indication only, and is always up to the seller to suggest why his/her shrimp is worth more or less. The $ Guide is gathered from recent sales, and also based on some discussions/PM's.

At the end of the day, if a BB Mosura, F2+ generation, breeds true, and was FS @ $1000 (see pic), I and perhaps some will have no hesitation to purchase it.

th_DEE1EC52-286A-4BB6-A73D-5E959BB8AA98-8580-0000035DFA6A2DA3.jpg

The recognition of TB dilution is important. The loss of quality in cherries is a good example. As a hobbyist, having selective breeding program's to improve patterns, purity, quality etc... Needs to be encouraged vs just producing for the sake of the $.

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Ace027

The loss of quality of the cherries is because it lost its value,not from cross breeding to lower grades. Lets face it, people wanted to breed rare and expensive breed not because its easy money nothing is easy money in shrimping except for those ones that are wheeling and dealing, Its human nature to hold on to something with value. If you spend thousands with setup and stock and eventually made money from it, I wont call it easy money, and no one on his right mind will enter this hobby just for the sake of making money, no one does, we are merely breaking even or still at lost from previous failures. So please stop accusing or even think that some breeders are in it only for the money.

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CNgo2006
The loss of quality of the cherries is because it lost its value' date='not from cross breeding to lower grades. Lets face it, people wanted to breed rare and expensive breed not because its easy money nothing is easy money in shrimping except for those ones that are wheeling and dealing, Its human nature to hold on to something with value. If you spend thousands with setup and stock and eventually made money from it, I wont call it easy money, and no one on his right mind will enter this hobby just for the sake of making money, no one does, we are merely breaking even or still at lost from previous failures. So please stop accusing or even think that some breeders are in it only for the money.[/quote']

They may begin by thinking that that could make easy money from shrimp but they soon find out that that was just a pipe dream! LOL!

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BlueBolts
The loss of quality of the cherries is because it lost its value' date='not from cross breeding to lower grades. Lets face it, people wanted to breed rare and expensive breed not because its easy money nothing is easy money in shrimping except for those ones that are wheeling and dealing, Its human nature to hold on to something with value. If you spend thousands with setup and stock and eventually made money from it, I wont call it easy money, and no one on his right mind will enter this hobby just for the sake of making money, no one does, we are merely breaking even or still at lost from previous failures. So please stop accusing or even think that some breeders are in it only for the money.[/quote']

LOL Ace027, had only mentioned the $ at the end of my lengthy post as a matter of fact, and you've jumped on that ? My intention was to highlight the scenario's and possible intention...and seriously.....if you took offense to that post, and seriously think there's no dishonesty out there, then your head is obviously berried in the sand, and/or are one of the issues !

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