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ineke

simple genetics help please

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ineke

Hi all,

If you have culls that come from good stock but are poor colour wouldn't some of their progeny still have the chance of some decent colour. I know you all go for the best and get rid of the rest but surely if they have the same genes you still will get a small proportion of good ones?

If you then buy say a good quality male and put it with the females that will then increase the quality again. I say male as preference to female because he can breed with a good number of females. Is this a good way to learn about improving stock.

My RCS are doing well and I am getting some good colour and just letting them breed for a while until the numbers build up and then cull out the lighter ones.

I've bought culls in yellow and CRS to make sure I can keep them and wasn't worried about breeding but now the bug is biting again and I want to breed these. Am I completely wasting my time ? I am doing the breeding for my own stock which can then be slowly culled but kept, not for selling. i know you should buy the best you can afford but now I have these not so beautiful shrimp I cant think to get rid of them. I also can't afford to buy a heap of good shrimp all at once but am I doing an injustice to the shrimp by using the culls? AND am I right to try to buy a good male to bring better colour ?

Cheers

Ineke:encouragement:

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OzShrimp

I started with A grade CRS when i started and got a few S grades and SS pattern but not color quality so i would think there is hope but it would just take more time to establish the higher grade gene that is in them

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CNgo2006

Percentage would be very low if at all though, if lucky.

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ineke

Thanks Oz , I do intend to try and get better quality shrimp but it will take a while but for learning how it works and maybe getting a slightly better type I just wondered if it would all be too hard this way? I know what I breed would not have any resale value but at this stage in my learning that is not important to me and I have the room to keep quite a few culls so thats not a problem. I just want to know if I would be completely wasting my time but by what you have said I would at least be learning while slowly improving the stock. So is it best to get a better quality male?

Cheers

Ineke:encouragement:

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ineke
Percentage would be very low if at all though' date=' if lucky.[/quote']

But would it be a good way to learn simple genetics with out the outlay? Probably in another few months when hubby forgets how much I spent on getting my tanks and equipement I will be able to start spending again and investing in good quality shrimp. also by then I will have decided which shrimp I would like to get serious about. But for now the purse is locked!!!! :dejection: We dont have his and her money and he isn't a tyrant but between the fish and the tanks ,equipment etc I've spent nearly $1500 since Xmas and just need to slow down . So I just thought if I can get a good male (plus I'm still trying to get at least one other female yellow) then it would be a start and maybe a good learning experience but if it is a complete waste of time then I will just have to enjoy what I have for a while and give up trying to breed until I can get good stock.

cheers

Ineke:encouragement:

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ninja

Yes you are!

In dog breeding Ineke, nature tends to keep the level of a population towards the average, to get higher than average one must recognise the faults in ones own stock and pick mates that can help improve those faults. This may not result in improvement in one generation. It's not possible to fix many problems at once and the higher the standard you have it's harder still!

unfortunately shrimp don't go by these rules, there doesn't seem to be the same importance in relationship to type for instance or gait. My husband is fond of saying 'you can't get strawberry jam from cocky crap!'

if you really want to improve your shrimp and you don't mind my advice, I would suggest letting go of your cull males, sell, give away, if you sell, the money could be used to buy one or 2 nice males to put to your girls, making sure they have the improvements you want of course and then cull hard as you improve gradually.

this is not easy in dogs but much easier in shrimp, I have a little indoor pond where my culls go, lol.

dont know which breed you are trying to improve but if its CRS,for instance, maybe you could go halves in the Auction of Bluebolts 4 males with someone else in your position???? If its allowed of course????? Also Males are generally cheaper!!!!, lol

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Squiggle

That's the way I'm doing it Ineke, I've started with lower grades & trying to improve from there, I feel it's more satisfying this way as when I reach my goal it will be through my own doing. I feel you learn more about genetics this way too. I have also bought a higher grade male for another program, because I'm impatient, & I'll see where that one goes for me. :encouragement:

image-74_zps1d5c5eef.jpg

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ineke

Ninja I hear where you are coming from and I think in the long run all my culls whether bought or bred will be going into the community tank when they are big enough to survive there. I think that when I get over this little spending spree that's just what I will do with all the males at least- cull and cull heavily. In the mean time as I am getting some conflicting ideas I will work with what I have and keep the best of them so that when I can afford a better male I will at least have some thing to breed him with.

Cheers

Ineke:encouragement:

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ninja

Ineke, in the meantime, your tanks will get full to overflowing. Then you won't have room for breeding better ones? Just my 2 cents worth. The main thing is to enjoy your hobby without stress, ok?

luv ya style, ninja.

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ninja

By the way if I had those 2 breeds I would send a couple, foc, but don't, so sorry mate!

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ineke

Hi Squiggle, thats the way I was leaning so I could learn a bit before I get the more expensive ones and I'm OK with the culling of the males eventually I just don't want to sit and look at empty tanks while I wait for the money to build up again. I guess if I am not selling the shrimp it probably doesn't matter and I may learn something while I play around with what I have.

My Reds are coming on strong as you saw in that photo I did yesterday. I have a very nice male now and will soon cull out all the others and just leave a few coloured boys with the darker girls, but I was warned not to cull too heavily at first in case some thing goes wrong and then I may not have any boys to go around.

But it still comes to my question about genes when 1 in a group of babies is really good and the others aren't then the genes are still the same therefore giving the chance of breeding a few good ones from a not so good one! But as ninja pointed out maybe shrimp don't work that way and as they have such short lives it probably cant be proven.

Aw well Mothers day is around the corner I will ask for some good shrimp and hope they don't buy me prawns!!!!:barbershop_quartet_

Cheers

Ineke:encouragement:

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ineke
By the way if I had those 2 breeds I would send a couple' date=' foc, but don't, so sorry mate![/quote']

Thanks Ninja not fishing for freebies I just writing down my thoughts in the hope you all can make it clearer. Yes my tanks will be full to overflowing with culls but not for long. I will get there it might just take a bit longer. The one thing I am doing is loving the hobby and once hubby realises I'm in this for the long haul the purse strings will open up again:friendly_wink:

Cheers

Ineke:encouragement:

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ninja

I know your not fishing for freebies mate, I hope I didn't offend you, was not my intention. We all have our problems, I'm just trying to work out how to tell my husband that I bought a rack when I'm not supposed to, lol.

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ineke
I know your not fishing for freebies mate' date=' I hope I didn't offend you, was not my intention. We all have our problems, I'm just trying to work out how to tell my husband that I bought a rack when I'm not supposed to, lol.[/quote']

No thats OK Ninja not offended at all and it was a nice thought. Yes telling hubby can be hard sometimes just have to wait for the right moment.

I don't even know what I want to take on as a breeding project that's my trouble dabbling in too many instead of being happy with one!!!! I started with 4 free RCS when i went to buy some plants for my aquarium- hadn't even heard of shrimp - was going to try and breed some Bettas so got an extra tank for them but when 1 of the shrimp had babies and I saw the Betta home in on it ,out went the Bettas into the community tank and the rest is history. Now 4 tanks with RCS , YCS and CRS and 1 empty waiting for some possible Rillis. Unfortunately not knowing better I spent a lot of money on 2 aqua one 30 cubes that hold 20 litres and while they are really nice they fluctuate in temperature too much in the hot weather. The 2 bigger tanks are fine. I should have spent the money on good quality shrimp instead but the tanks will always be there and the shrimp will come and go.

Cheers

Ineke:encouragement:

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Squiggle

Lol, too funny ninja, how will you hide it till the time is right? Lol :encouragement:

I'm not very experienced with shrimp genetics but I hoping its similar to fish. With Bettas, which I know a fair bit about, it only take one "mutant" fry to show a trait that is desirable, you breed that with another sibling which has the closest traits to the one your looking for, the fry from that should give you a few more with the desirable traits & either larger, longer or more colour, depending on what you're chasing. In the past I changed a whole colour of a line & it started with one fish out of 250fry with a tiny spot of the colour I thought was pretty cool, took about six generations & another three to breed true but I got there :victorious:

image-74_zps08e342a3.jpg

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ineke

Yay Squiggle that's what I'm talking about. If the culls I have come from the same gene pool as the better shrimp and I get 1 or 2 with better colour then that's where I start the line breeding but if nothing good shows up and I keep a few of the best girls and by then I should be able to buy a better male and even possibly a female or 2 then I have a small nucleus to start with. By keeping the best in each batch remembering they had good genes originally then I may get some throw backs worth keeping.

I know when I first bred and showed guinea Pigs I ended up with over 100 GP's before eventually getting the quality and the colour I was after. With them I had to start from scratch breeding white crested to red crested to get a red with a white crest with no white anywhere else and also without a fault called side whiskers. It took months but I eventually got there but we went through a lot of breeding and back breeding to do it. so thats why I thought the shrimp would be the same!

Cheers

Ineke:encouragement:

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ninja

Lol, maybe he won't notice it, ha ha!

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ineke
Lol' date=' maybe he won't notice it, ha ha![/quote']

I don't like your chances!!!!

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ineke

images1jpggp_zps0f4917fd.jpgamerican crested guinea pig please note this is not one of mine but what I was breeding.

Cheers

Ineke

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ninja

I'm really scared lol. I'm gunna sneak it in when he's away the next couple of days. When he notices i will say, "OMG, where on earth did that come from?" "Did you buy it for me?"

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ineke

bahaha I was just going to tell you to do that. Gosh us girls are wicked in every sense of the word. The poor men don't stand a chance LOL

Cheers

Ineke:encouragement:

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Squiggle

Wow, looks very cool Ineke :encouragement:

image-74_zps9d23dc0f.jpg

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ineke

I do believe that Donkey has a smile on its face!!!!!!

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BlueBolts
I do believe that Donkey has a smile on its face!!!!!!

OMG ineke, my whole perspective and vision of you has changed ! LOL.....

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Squiggle

Lol, gold BB, just gold! :encouragement:

image-74_zps76e3d817.jpg

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