Battling Increasing pH

[piste]

Ok....so I am fairly experienced fresh water fish and shrimp keeper but I have been battling pH in my shrimp tank and could really use some guidance.  This is a 5 gallon tank that I have had running for about 4 or 5 years...same SL Aqua substrate.  I did neglect the tank for a period of time due to a house move.  lost most of my shrimp as a result but got things settled down again and restocked last December with 15 painted fire RCS from an online shop I have used often in the past.   Unfortunately they also sent me a healthy stock of copepods which I mistook for shrimp fry.  At the moment most of that batch of shrimp are gone...but I do have a few survivors including a new class of baby shrimp.  But my big issue for the past month or two has been a pH that I cannot get down into a range I am happy with.  It keeps wanting to creep up to 8.0 to 8.2 or so.  I am doing ~20% water changes once or twice a week with distilled water which helps temporarily but pH creeps back up.  I have all but shut off the sponge filter as I have read that can contribute to increasing pH.  Been adding catalpa leaves, peat, alder cones and a refresh of a few pieces of cholla wood....without any improvement.  There isn't anything else in the tank.  I feed shrimp once a day with a rotation of shrimp foods...and do not at all believe I overfeed.  I do have some snails in there as a cleanup crew.  The albino cory became a resident in an attempt to keep copepod population in check...to not much avail.  So ...what the heck keeps pushing up the pH.  Is my substrate the culprit as it is 5 years old or so?  It was SL Aqua substrate.   I target pH to be in the 6.5 to 7.5 range.  Anything close to 6.0 or 8.0 worries me a bit.  I do know not to use things like pH Up or pH down.  The white bag you see hanging is full of peat.  Any thoughts on the pH issue?

Separately....I think the copepods are a lost cause and I know of no way to safely eradicate them....the infestation is more than annoying.  Feel like I am running a copepod tank...they far outnumber my shrimp!!  I think my only option is gonna be to get another tank up and running and transfer shrimp to it over a period of time...then nuke this current tank....which of course solves the pH problem too!!

Thanks in advance!!

[jayc]

3 hours ago, piste said:

I have all but shut off the sponge filter as I have read that can contribute to increasing pH. 

Not sure who would give you that advice. Unless the sponge filter is made out of carbonates, it will not be increasing pH.

In fact, the natural process of the beneficial bacteria on your filter will decrease pH. The BB takes in H2O, uses the O (oxygen) and releases H (hydrogen). A net increase of H. And we all know that when there is more hydrogen in the tank ... pH drops.

 

3 hours ago, piste said:

So ...what the heck keeps pushing up the pH.  Is my substrate the culprit as it is 5 years old or so?  It was SL Aqua substrate. 

The only things that might cause the pH to increase in a tank is shell grit, rocks, or your source water is naturally high in carbonates.

Do you have rocks in the tank?

Do you have any shells, corals, cuttlefish bones, etc in your tank?

Try taking half a cup of substrate from your tank, and test it. Test pH of that  distilled water. Add distilled water to that cup of substrate you removed. And then test the pH periodically to see if it increases over a day.

Do you use any other sources of water apart from the distilled water?

[piste]

10 minutes ago, jayc said:

Not sure who would give you that advice. Unless the sponge filter is made out of carbonates, it will not be increasing pH.

In fact, the natural process of the beneficial bacteria on your filter will decrease pH. The BB takes in H2O, uses the O (oxygen) and releases H (hydrogen). A net increase of H. And we all know that when there is more hydrogen in the tank ... pH drops.

 

The only things that might cause the pH to increase in a tank is shell grit, rocks, or your source water is naturally high in carbonates.

Do you have rocks in the tank?

Do you have any shells, corals, cuttlefish bones, etc in your tank?

Try taking half a cup of substrate from your tank, and test it. Test pH of that  distilled water. Add distilled water to that cup of substrate you removed. And then test the pH periodically to see if it increases over a day.

Do you use any other sources of water apart from the distilled water?

I read somewhere...once ..something about the sponge filter aeration and CO2 causing pH to rise.... I forget the chemistry.

 

FWIW...I have a sponge on the filter intake and I squeeze that out every water change....in water removed from the tank.  

ZERO rocks, shells or anything similar in the tank.  Nothing but substrate, some cholla wood with attached plants, catalpa leaves, peat, etc.

Water added during changes is 100% distilled water...some of that being augmented by Salty Shrimp to keep GH around 5 or 6.  pH of distilled water last I checked around 5.5..worth checking again I suppose.   Tank is a Top Fin tank with side filter and nothing but a carbon filter in there.   My leading suspect is the substrate.  I recall reading that substate loses qualities and needs replaced every handful of years.  Otherwise...no idea here.  Thanks for the input.  I will do the substate test you advise.

Edited May 29, 2021 by piste

[sdlTBfanUK]

If you have only  a few shrimps in the tank then the copepod problem is easily sorted by putting some fish in the tank for a few weeks. I put dwarf rasbora in mt tank with seed shrimps and they cleared it in a day or two, tetras may also work and if you can get somewhere to put the shrimp temporerily that is a good idea, though adult shrimp should be safe anyway andit is only for a week or two!

Have you always used distilled water? If you used to used tap water with a high PH then the soil that softened the water may have got saturated, and is now doing the reverse, slowly releasing what it absorbed before, especially if it is low PH water you now use! A PH of 8 wouldn't necesarily be a problem for cherry shrimp, though fluctuating won't be good for them, if you have a few shrimp left then just leave it and run it normally and see what happens, ie whether it (PH) goes above the 8.2?

Considering this isn't a large tank with only a few inhabitants, it is probably best to start again with new substrate (inert for cherry shrimp otherwise you have the reverse problem, PH dropping). This is clearly the quickest fix! If you use PH uffering soil again oviously this problem may happen again down the line! There is a TETRA product of soil over here which doesn't buffer the PH but it may not be available to you where you are, link below just to show you so you can check around, ebay, amazon etc etc.

https://www.tropco.co.uk/-p-3201.html?carpid=ahhacc5tifnj5oijlf3njaqka4

Simon

edit - had a quick look on Amazon, but the above is available for US but $85 for 3L, Seacom Flourite may suit better at $30 for 15lb.

Edited May 29, 2021 by sdlTBfanUK

[piste]

5 hours ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

If you have only  a few shrimps in the tank then the copepod problem is easily sorted by putting some fish in the tank for a few weeks. I put dwarf rasbora in mt tank with seed shrimps and they cleared it in a day or two, tetras may also work and if you can get somewhere to put the shrimp temporerily that is a good idea, though adult shrimp should be safe anyway andit is only for a week or two!

Have you always used distilled water? If you used to used tap water with a high PH then the soil that softened the water may have got saturated, and is now doing the reverse, slowly releasing what it absorbed before, especially if it is low PH water you now use! A PH of 8 wouldn't necesarily be a problem for cherry shrimp, though fluctuating won't be good for them, if you have a few shrimp left then just leave it and run it normally and see what happens, ie whether it (PH) goes above the 8.2?

Considering this isn't a large tank with only a few inhabitants, it is probably best to start again with new substrate (inert for cherry shrimp otherwise you have the reverse problem, PH dropping). This is clearly the quickest fix! If you use PH uffering soil again oviously this problem may happen again down the line! There is a TETRA product of soil over here which doesn't buffer the PH but it may not be available to you where you are, link below just to show you so you can check around, ebay, amazon etc etc.

https://www.tropco.co.uk/-p-3201.html?carpid=ahhacc5tifnj5oijlf3njaqka4

Simon

edit - had a quick look on Amazon, but the above is available for US but $85 for 3L, Seacom Flourite may suit better at $30 for 15lb.

Thanks Simon.  I did try putting in 3 neon tetras for a week or so.  Copepods seemed to clear up quickly...so removed neons and copepods returned shortly thereafter.  Copepods seem to like to burrow in the SL Aqua substrate...so I think they hideout in there til the coast was clear.  I did keep the albino cory in there....but he doesn't seem to be doing his job!!  I will likely put some neons back in there and give it a longer time period.  I do have some shrimp fry at the moment so have been waiting for them to get a bit bigger...and thus less likely to be neon food.

Yes I have always used nothing but distilled water in this tank.  I do use Salty Shrimp..but the GH/KH and sometimes GH only and regularly test tank to keep GH in the 6 range.  I do a 30% water change about once a week....pH drops to about 7.6 or so...then creeps back up to the 8.0 to 8.2 range...sometimes a tad higher.  The chemist in my is going nuts trying to figure out what is producing those hydrogen ions.  8 to 8.2 isn't horrible...but would like to be a bit lower...and not always creeping up like it does.

Thanks for the tip on the Fluorite!!  I appreciate your time and contributions here.

 

 

[piste]

Well...I may have found my pH culprit.  I mixed up batches of the two Salty Shrimp products.  The one with both GH and KH tests well above 8.0 pH...like 8.3 or 8.4.  The GH-only product tests around 7.2 pH.  I will adjust my regimen accordingly and see where it goes.  My guess is that historically my SL Aqua substrate was buffering...but has expended its ability to do so.

[sdlTBfanUK]

Good news you have identified the cause of the problem and I hope it all goes well now! At least you don't need to redo the tank with new substrate for your neocaridina shrimps!

Simon 

[Radjabatak]

Hi,

Sorry I'm newbie here... One thing that you should know about water chemistry, if you have a swing pH, try to check the KH of the water... And also check the substrate, may be the substrate loosing the buffer effect on the water.. I have been through "the battle of PH" years ago.. and the result is very exhausting and annoying.. finally I give up, and reset my tank... With new soil and new plant.. and the problem solved, I can sleep without having stress about the pH again...

[Franks]

How is now the condition of pH?

[piste]

Well...I come back with head in hands.  Turns out my ph meter...an Apera...seemed to have outlived it's useful life and was giving my false high readings.  I tossed it...got a new version of the same model and seems life is really ok as far as pH goes.  My other issue of copepods remains to be resolved.  As best I can tell...the fish I have in the tank have kept the copepod population in check...but I believe these suckers are happy to live below the substrate.  Game plan is remove the fish soon to another tank and see if the copepods return..which I am betting is highly likely.  If so...will have to break down the tank and start fresh.