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Phoenix

Help! Advice on KH GH PH TDS community tank

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Phoenix

Hi. 

I'm new to shrimp keeping. 

I have a nano tank (25l) with a few orange cherry shrimp, I also have one Betta and 6 pygmy cory and two spotted Ramshorn snails. (The Betta is completely non aggressive to anything other than his own reflection) 

My problem is with the KH

My Tap water regularly measures 1-2 KH with TDS of 80ppm GH of 2-3 PH 6.8/7 with 0 copper.

I was concerned that there would not be enough minerals for my shrimp to moult etc,  I added a water equaliser buffer and my KH rose to 5, GH rose to 6 however my PH also went up to 7.8 which is to high for my Betta and my Cory.

Since adding some of the buffered water to my tank my PH has been between 7.4 and 7.8 day to night - it didn't used to swing so much - but my KH has again dropped to 4 I am still at 225ppm my GH is 5

Can anyone advise me what is best? When I didn't use any buffer my tank and just used Prime in my tap water my PH remained between 6.6 and 6.8

Tank temperature is 24.5 as that's about as low as I can go for my Betta 

What would other people do and am I trying to keep the right type of shrimp or is there another that would be better suited to my tap water (once treated) or should I not try to have shrimp at all?  

The tank is planted although there hasn't been much growth from anything other than my mosses and something (I think snail) is eating new growth on the java fern. There are plenty of hiding places for the shrimp and they are quite shy obviously, but getting bolder.

Tank seems fully cycled (it's been running 2 months and was started with bacteria from my pond) as I have 0 nitrite 0 ammonia all the time 

Nitrates have been on the high side at 20ppm (water changes done at this point) but have now started to stabilise at 5ppm

I have a bio filter and sponge filter and airstone (too much oxygen?) All running on lowest settings.

Any help or advice please 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Phoenix
Forgot about filters
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AresGr

IMO try keep gH above 3. Don't touch kH

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jayc
14 hours ago, Phoenix said:

What would other people do and am I trying to keep the right type of shrimp or is there another that would be better suited to my tap water (once treated) or should I not try to have shrimp at all? 

As you have discovered, adding buffering minerals has increased KH and pH. KH is tied to pH, increase KH and pH will also increase.

The parameters didn't change on it's own. Somebody changed it. Make sure you stop that person from adding stuff to your tank. 😄

Then make sure you do your regular weekly water changes to get the parameters back to it's original readings. It might take a few weeks but it should go back to normal as long as your tap water parameters don't change.

 

14 hours ago, Phoenix said:

Tank temperature is 24.5 as that's about as low as I can go for my Betta 

Betta's don't go with shrimp as you have found out. When you optimise the tank parameters for one, the other will suffer.

I would strongly suggest getting another tank to separate them. Or only buy Fish / Shrimp for one tank that live in the same environment.

There is nothing wrong with your original water parameters for shrimp.

If you wanted to just raise GH, then you need Calcium Sulphate & Magnesium Sulphate at 3:1 ratio. This can be found in most RO remineralisers GH+. "water equaliser buffer" is not the same thing, which raises KH and GH.

 

Good luck

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Phoenix

Thank you so much. I will look to separate them. I will let my tank slowly revert to normal readings. I have another nano tank spare. 

I thought I had read that cherry's were ok at 24.5 but I'm guessing they prefer it colder than what people list? 

Thanks for the advice on GH, I thought it was calcium carbonate that shrimp needed but reading your reply it is calcium sulfate (and magnesium)

Now I just have to try to catch them (once I've set up and checked that new tank is cycled)

Funnily enough my oh has now settled to 7.2 for two days kh 4 GH 5 TDs 210 this morning. 

The shrimp were out first thing which is unlike them 😄 but I know they will be happier in a tank of their own. 

One final question how do people manage to keep mixed types of shrimp together I've seen people with neocaridina and caridina together?

Thanks again you've been a great help. 👍

 

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jayc
36 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

I thought I had read that cherry's were ok at 24.5 but I'm guessing they prefer it colder than what people list? 

Cherry shrimp are ok at 24-25, but they do better at 22degC. And since it's winter where you are, it shouldn't be too difficult.

The Betta won't tolerate 24 for very long, and they should have at least 26 degC.

 

38 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

One final question how do people manage to keep mixed types of shrimp together I've seen people with neocaridina and caridina together?

People keep neocaridina and caridina together by "compromising". They keep water parameters at the lower end of the neo and the upper end of the limits for caridina. Which is somewhere around ph 6.8 - 6.9 and TDS around 180.

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Phoenix

Thank you so much yet again, perfect explanation. 🙂

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Phoenix

@jayc I have now moved the neos out of the Betta tank, it seems a shame there isn't a way to have shrimp in a community tank. 

I did read that caridina babaulti prefer warmer temperatures and similar pH GH kh to mine, is this correct and if so is there a chance they would co exist with the Betta? 

Many thanks 

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jayc
11 hours ago, Phoenix said:

is there a chance they would co exist with the Betta? 

Possibly, but I will let you decide if you want to risk shrimp with a betta.

I don't want to be the one that sends other people's shrimp to their deaths. :happy:

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Phoenix
11 hours ago, jayc said:

Possibly, but I will let you decide if you want to risk shrimp with a betta.

I don't want to be the one that sends other people's shrimp to their deaths. :happy:

Thanks Jay, as I said in my previous post he's non aggressive to the shrimp. 

They swim right past his nose and he ignores them. You can see him in the background and the shrimp are completely un fazed 😍

IMG_20201225_091429.jpg

Ps. This was before i decided to separate them. 

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sdlTBfanUK

Sorry about being a johnny come lately, been without phone/internet since the storm after christmas, hopefully fully sorted now.

I have had a few betta with shrimp. I suspect the current one (got before xmas) may eat shrimp as I haven't seen any shrimp since I got him (they were culls anyway). The previous betta didn't touch the shrimps and I often saw them roaming the tank! My betta tank with shrimps ran ok at 24-26 degrees, my cherry tanks water occassionaly gets to 30 degrees for rare hot days and they survive that fine! I haven't seen the new betta eat or attack shrimp and I expect even the old betta would hae munched happily any shrimplets he found?  There is always the chance the betta may turn from not eating shrimp to a shrimp eater further down the line. None of this matters of coarse if you have seperated them?

Probably an Amano shrimp or 2 would be fine with a betta?

It appears you have everything in hand thanks to good advice from others here. The lesson probably is to leave well alone unless there is a serious problem (deaths etc), don''t try to fix something that isn't broken. Hopefully though there hasn't been any loses. Any water adjustments need to be done gradually anyway to minimise the risk to the occupants so the slow adjustments you are getting is good.

I keep neon tetras and ember tetras with cherry shrimp and have no problems if that helps? Thats been the case for 5+ years now.

Mixing shrimp is a whole other issue. The easiest to mix would be neocaridina and tiger shrimp as they are both fairly robust and adaptable but the tangerine tiger are the same colour as the orange you have so there wouldn't be much point in that. Mixing different colours of neocaridina causes them to revert to wild/boring type. As JayC states, you need to get the water to the upper caridina parameters because thecherry shrimp are easier to adapt and keep - even outside of their ideal range! It may not be as easy as you think, as youmay need to start using RO water and shrimp remineraliser etc?

Simon

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Phoenix

Thank you Simon, it's nice to know someone has successfully kept Betta and shrimp!! And always better late than never in my book 😄

My boy is a fairly shy one. I'm not sure he's ever had live food, so I think this may be the difference, he happily takes protein treats, loves stealing shrimp pellets off the bottom (in between the Cory's muscling in) and his Betta food - 3 varieties 

I'm going to wait a few months and check that my tank is completely stable, then get some babaulti. If they are in any way threatened by lūc-tankstalker  then I will pop them in with the cherrys. 

Thank you everyone, I'm sure I will be posting more as the journey develops. 

🦐🦐🦐🦐🦐🦐🦐🦐🦐🦐🦐🦐🦐🦐🦐

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just for you Simon - didn't realise I had a full shot of Lûc...

(And everyone else in the forum really I guess!! 😄 )

IMG_20201225_091401.jpg

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sdlTBfanUK

Beautiful Betta, I must put a photo of my new one oh the forium!

The babualti shrimp may be safer with a betta as they are green so not quite so obvious, though I'm still sure the betta will eat any baby shrimps if he gets the chance? And even if he doesn't eat the shrimps now, he may start later on, so you will need to keep a perminant check on him, and your shrimps. The babaulti will be fine with the red cherry shrimps if that happens as the 2 don't crossbreed! And of course, when you start getting wild type cherry babies (usually clear or brown) you can happily dump them in with the betta, as I did, either as live food, or if the betta doesn't eat them, clean up crew - either way is a win?

You may have to wait a while to get the shrimps of coarse with us now on full lockdown again......... but that suits your plan anyway I guess, luckily? Are you a ProShrimp customer?

Simon

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Phoenix

Thank you, sounds good and yes you should post 🙂 are you on a Betta forum? 

I am a proshrimp customer, I have had some plants from you.

I was hoping to get the striped babaulti rather than green. 

I do watch him like a hawk, he's really funny. The Cory's continually push him out of their sand area, not in a nasty way but just being determined to get their breakfast 😄

 

 

 

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sdlTBfanUK

I thought you may be a ProShrimp customer as they are the only people I have seen selling babaulti shrimps here. I have used them for years!

I think Betta (and my killie) are great and fun to watch, as they will interact with you, though probably only because they think they will get some food? I'm not on a betta forum, I only keep 1 and got all the info I needed from JayC on here which seems to have worked beautifully. My old one died just before xmas and was about 2 years old which is the longest I have had one, but it was my fault he didn't live longer as I accidently probably overfed him, but wasn't well enough myself to sort that out. There is a section for betta on this forum and here is a link to when I set up mine with JayC advice;

https://skfaquatics.com/forum/forums/topic/14083-betta-water-parameters/

I give them an 'organic' pea once a week (mashed up and fed with an old match) which they seem to love, bizarrely as they are insect eaters. I use bug bite food (amazon, ebay) most days, only 1 or 2 of the pieces as betta have REALLY tiny stomachs and easily get constipated as they will eat too much! There are thousands of youtube videos on betta? I recommend getting some Indian almond leaves as they are good for shrimps and fish. My betta tank is a lot darker than yours, poorer light, floating weed, densely planted, added Humin fluid (browns the water).

I tried taking a photo earlier of the betta with an iphone someone lent me the other day, but thats not happening, ridiculous machines (I'm a bit of a technophobe)......... I will have to resort to finding my camera I guess?????

Simon

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Crabby

That's a really pretty betta, Phoenix. Would like to see yours too, Simon!

Good to hear multiple people have done well with bettas and shrimp! I've just gone from pretty much hating on bettas for the last 2 years, to being really interested in them, in the last few weeks, so I'd just like to ask if anyone in this thread has had success breeding bettas before? I'm thinking probably a few months into the future, but it would be nice to know, before I do decide that's what I'd like to do with some tanks. 

Crabby.

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Phoenix

Hi Crabby, this is my first Betta for a long time. I did see someone advertising a breeding pair of coppers, I think on eBay. 

Simon. Thank you for the extra advice. I'm going to wait for the plants to get fully established to bring down nitrates then have a go at getting some Babaulti. 

My water is really soft out of the tap - GH and KH both 2 drops of API. I'm trying to avoid more softeners 😃 

I've actually bought some replenish which seems to be easy to use to bring the GH up to 6 before any water changes. Plus a tiny drop of flourish once a week making sure my TDS isn't affected. (It's only 80 out of the tap)

PH is pretty constant now considering my KH is low. 

And I've become the proud mum of a baby java fern 😍 

Good luck Crabby, photos if you are successful in breeding please 🥰

 

 

 

 

 

 

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sdlTBfanUK

I accidently had success breedin bettas, it isn't difficult!

I bought 3 female betta from a closing down garden centre and a couple of months later had 30-50 baby betta! Obviously one of the females was a male. I wasn't prepared for that, a few I gave away to friends but the others died off as I had nowhere to put/keep them. Feeeding baby ones may be the most difficult/complicated part I suspect!

Keeping shrimp with a Betta is a coin toss though? Amano should be fine as they are bigger. 

I am constantly giving away young java fern, it grows so well and reproduces, you may never need to buy more, I havent!

Simon

ps tried again with friends old iphone this morning to get a photo of Betta, it's not happening, modern crap........... I will find my camera!

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Phoenix

Oh yes definitely get a picture somehow. Simon. 

I'm pretty sure adults will be safe with my Betta, he won't even eat bloodworm! He just watches it float past his nose. 

He's only interested in his Betta food, shrimp pellets if the same size not the bigger ones and the odd tiny protein treat that I have to drop almost on top of him. 

Maybe he's shortsighted?? 🤣

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sdlTBfanUK

I have posted a photo of my new Betta, see this link,

https://skfaquatics.com/forum/forums/topic/14083-betta-water-parameters/page/2/

Phoenix, I have my fingeers crossed that the shrimp work with your Betta (they did also with my prior Betta), it is just important that we make others reading these threads aware that it may not work, probably 50/50. Also, even though it works now, it may change further down the line! Again though, there is no way of knowing, my prior I had for a year and half and he never seemed interested in the shrimp so I hope yours continues to live happily and peacefully together.

Maybe you have a new vegan variant, that seems to be increaasing in popularity?

Simon

 

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Crabby
On 1/13/2021 at 9:06 PM, sdlTBfanUK said:

Maybe you have a new vegan variant, that seems to be increasing in popularity?

I just ordered myself a betta, and I'm rather hoping he does turn out to be a gentle one like yours have been Simon. I might test him with some cheap cherries, we'll see. Excited to meet the little chap though, when he arrives!

 

On 1/12/2021 at 10:55 PM, sdlTBfanUK said:

I accidently had success breeding bettas, it isn't difficult!

I bought 3 female betta from a closing down garden centre and a couple of months later had 30-50 baby betta! Obviously one of the females was a male. I wasn't prepared for that, a few I gave away to friends but the others died off as I had nowhere to put/keep them. Feeding baby ones may be the most difficult/complicated part I suspect!

That must have been a shock! I'm glad to hear it's that easy though. I've heard mixed reports - usually it's the females being too picky apparently. I'm planning on breeding them in a little tank in my room, that is currently (while quite nicely scaped) a mess of algae and microlife. It should (I hope!) be jam-packed with infusoria for the little guys. 

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sdlTBfanUK
8 minutes ago, Crabby said:

I just ordered myself a betta, and I'm rather hoping he does turn out to be a gentle one like yours have been Simon. I might test him with some cheap cherries, we'll see. Excited to meet the little chap though, when he arrives!

 

That must have been a shock! I'm glad to hear it's that easy though. I've heard mixed reports - usually it's the females being too picky apparently. I'm planning on breeding them in a little tank in my room, that is currently (while quite nicely scaped) a mess of algae and microlife. It should (I hope!) be jam-packed with infusoria for the little guys. 

I took about 20 wild cherry this week and put them in the betta tank. That tank is so deense now and the cear/brown of the shrimps means I probably won't be able to tell whether the betta eats the shrimp, but they were culls anyway. I assume he didn't eat them ALL otherwise he would probably have died of overfeeding? He loves his pea weekly treat, he put it on a leaf near the top today so he didn't have to keep swimming to the bottom to get it???

I only got the 3 females years ago as the shop was closing down and they were likey to be thrown out, but 1 was clearly a male. I did notice a bit of aggression/slight tears in some fins, but thought nothing of it, after all, females squabble sometimes, I assume that was the mating though?

I hope it all goes really well Crabby, and look forward to hearing how it goes on here!

Simon  

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Crabby
On 1/17/2021 at 9:41 PM, sdlTBfanUK said:

I only got the 3 females years ago as the shop was closing down and they were likey to be thrown out, but 1 was clearly a male. I did notice a bit of aggression/slight tears in some fins, but thought nothing of it, after all, females squabble sometimes, I assume that was the mating though?

Yeah I think betta mating, however beautiful, always ends of with some aggression and damaged fins.
 

On 1/17/2021 at 9:41 PM, sdlTBfanUK said:

He loves his pea weekly treat, he put it on a leaf near the top today so he didn't have to keep swimming to the bottom to get it???

That's so cute! I'll have to try peas. We have some growing in the garden, so there isn't the worry about it having pesticides or anything. 
 

On 1/17/2021 at 9:41 PM, sdlTBfanUK said:

I hope it all goes really well Crabby, and look forward to hearing how it goes on here!

Thankyou! He just arrived today, looking splendid. I'll send some photos when he's settled in. Just double checking right now that I've got similar parameters to the ones jayc recommended to you. 

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      One way of guaranteeing traits in the offspring is to separate and breed parents with the same trait you are looking for. If you let the shrimps just go free for all ... that is what you will get - free for all looking shrimp. This is one way of getting MTS (Multi Tank Syndrome), where new tanks suddenly appear out of thin air. You go from one tank to several without knowing what happened.
    • Gingerfrost
      So if you breed the more transparent cherry shrimps it'll become wild type. Is it at least a slight bit if chance to keep the stripe legs but keep the grade to go up?    I really do enjoy watching the shrimp with the stripe legs swim around. I think it's actually the most active preferring to ride the water currents.   Either way the leg stripes are pretty, anyway to keep them without going wild?
    • beanbag
      Neo shrimp seem to do ok in KH 0 water, but then seem to die off a few months later.  I would try to have even a little KH, like 1, or be sure to feed them enough mineral food.
    • Chels
      Absolutely. I'm researching how to keep the PH low enough to keep them happy rn. Even a buffering substrate + salty bee alone doesn't cut it, since they need a 5.5-6.7. I would need a lot of driftwood, very little plants (maybe just a tiny amount of floaters - salvina, not the dreaded duckweed), and a constant supply of botanicals for all of the tannins. Now I understand why all of the rare pinto breeders have such sparse tanks. I always wondered why they have so very little plants.  I'm wondering if the PH regulators would help.. though I'm sure it would somehow kill super sensitive caridina. I know a lot of people experience losses even with the right parameters, and spending $500 at a time on shrimp just to have them die under the perfect conditions isn't a deal breaker for me. I went through much of the same keeping finches. I had very rare color variations and I was always pretty much trying to keep them alive. Spending $1k at a time on breeding stock is a must. At one point I had a whole finch room with racks of cages, and larger aviaries in my living room. The only reason I stopped is when my brother died and everything kind of took a back seat to my grief. I prefer the challenge and keeping/breeding rare color variations is worth it. That's the best way imho to elevate any breeding hobby. With Flip Aquatics, they have a 30 day holding period for their imported + rare caridina variations. That is huge since imported shrimp tend to die for no reason (or many reasons) during that time frame according to everything I've read/watched. That's a giant leg up. There is also a breeder I just found nearby - The Grove Aquatics - with the rarer variations. If they can provide the same 30 day buffer or if they have tank bred then I'm in business with 2 different lines to start with. 
    • sdlTBfanUK
      I have duckweed in one tank and I have tried several times to get rid of it but it keeps re-appering so I would recommend you avoid that. TheCaridina shrimp are a lot more difficult to keep so do lots of research before you start dwn that route, and be prepared for the fact it may not work even with the best attention and parameters/ Simon
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