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WaldoDude

Cherry Shrimp Dying

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jayc
1 hour ago, WaldoDude said:

Looks like progress, how often should I do a water change to slowly bring down the ph

Absolutely. Just continue with regular weekly water changes. No need to alter the routine, or as Simon said, add additional water changes to the routine.

Unfortunately, as long as you are using tap water, the lowest pH it will get is what you have from the tap. 7.4/7.6 as you mentioned above.

If it gets down to 7.4, that should make a difference to the shrimp. Especially if GH is around 4.

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WaldoDude

Hello, so i've done my first water change using RO water. Now, I used Salty Shrimp Bee Shrimp GH+ as it was the only one my lfs had. I realised this doesn't have KH like the Salty Shrimp GH/KH+, so my question is do I need to add anything else to the water for KH? So following the dosage on the product, I got a GH of 7 with a TDS of 140 and KH of 0-1 (maybe 2, it went a little yellow at the first drop, and solid yellow at the 2nd drop). 

Cheers!

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jayc
19 minutes ago, WaldoDude said:

so my question is do I need to add anything else to the water for KH?

Not that much of a problem if you got the GH+ instead of GH/KH+.

All you need to do is add Bi Card Soda (not baking soda), which you might already have in the kitchen.

Go slow. A bit of Bicarb goes a long way to increasing KH.

I suggest dissolving 1/4 teaspoon in some tank water. Do this in a small container.

Then drop a couple of drops of this into the tank. Any extra can be stored in an empty bottle for next time.

Re-test KH

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sdlTBfanUK

I would just test the KH of the tank and make sure it is still 3 and if it is leave it alone, that's the figure you want. I use a separate KH+ (elixir) for the one tank I want to add some KH and I already have the GH+ anyway. It is a bit more complicated than buying the GH/KH combined but not that much once you get used to it. You are aiming to keep it at 3-4, so aim for 3 as it is easier to increase than decrease.

I think JayC probably knows of a cheap KH alternative cooking product or ingredient (if I remember correctly, I want to say bicarbonate of soda but don't rely on that, something similar?) rather than buying a special product which is obviously more expensive so see what he has to say later!

If the first drop was pale yellow then it probably is 0, the reason it went darker will be down to the adding of more tester fluid. The GH+ usually has no KH so with RO water it is usually 0 but you can't test for zero as that requires adding zero drops, and therein you are starting down the road to insanity............. If you are that bothered (and you shouldn't be really) you can increase the volume of water, ie double (10ml) each drop is .5 KH, or 4 times the water (20ml) each drop is .25 KH and so on, however it will be so diluted you probably won't be able to se any colour anyway as it is difficult enough to see the colour in 5ml?

Simon

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WaldoDude

Thank you both, I do have some bi-carb soda lying around so I'm sorted on that front.
On another note, my tank loses water to evaporation whereby I usually do 2-3 topups in a week. Now how does this work in relation to using ro water? I've read that as the water evaporates the tds remains and so you should just do the topups with just pure ro/di water, is this correct?
Also a quick update on the tank:
Ph - down to 7.6
Gh - 5/6
Kh - 3
TDS - 129

I think all of my adult cherry shrimp have died, the last one alive was the female cherry that escaped the box. She seemed to be going all good in the tank but I haven't seen her at all in the last few days, I'm hoping that she's just hiding away. The sole shrimplet in the breeder box is still alive and molting well which is surprising but I noticed something odd. sometime last week I noticed one of its eyes were bigger than the other (or perhaps one was unusally smaller?) then a couple days ago I noticed it had lost an eye completely 😞
 

Edited by WaldoDude
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sdlTBfanUK

Top up should always be pure RO water omly for the reason you mentioned.

Can you retest TDS? It is probably still too low but hopefully going in the right direction?

If the shrimp are having moulting issues then it may have damaged one of the eyes, I've not heard of one losing an eye though?

Simon 

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WaldoDude

Ok thanks. Sorry yeah the TDS is 129. What TDS should I be aiming for? From what I understand when i remineralise my ro water, I should aim for a particular GH then test for the TDS that correlates to, which is then the TDS i should aim for in the future.  In my case, following the dosage for my Bee Shrimp GH+, my RO water ended up with a GH of 7 and TDS of 140. So should I aim for 140? A TDS of 140 is still a bit on the low side I think but if were to aim for lets say 170, would that mean GH would also have to go even higher? or will the addition of KH make up for that extra TDS
I hope that makes sense haha just trying to get my head around it!

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sdlTBfanUK

I would mix the new RO water to TDS 160 (you don't need to do the GH test everytime as the product you are using will mean that the GH is fine)! The KH alixir I use does add someTDS but as I would be aiming for tank TDS of 180 (roughly, it doesn't need to be spot on, 10 either way is fine) ultimately then the extra TDS that the KH adds should be covered!

From your figures above you can see that the GH+ at the level you used creates 1 GH at TDS of 20, thats usual!

Simon

Edited by sdlTBfanUK
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WaldoDude

Ok so problem. 3 days ago I made another water change with ro/di water. The next day I tested the PH, my Ph meter said 7.2/3, API test showed ph between 7.2 and 7.4, which was great! Today I decided to test the Ph again to see if it had remained, and frustratingly the API test shows 7.6 (max on the card) and the meter confirms it at 7.7/8.  

So I'm stumped on whats causing the water to increase in PH. I tested my RO/DI water just in case, and its Ph is around 7.2, probs closer to the 7 mark i assume. I have removed all the rocks a while ago. I have a couple of cattapa leaves in the tank. The only rock I have in the tank is a small piece of lava rock (which I've read should be PH neutral?) that I use to hold my egg trap down (just a small plastic tupperware container with moss and a plastic mesh).  I have taken it out now just in case.

Only thing that has been going into the tank arebaby brine shrimp in the last few days, as well as a little bit of infusoria for feeding. My tank has also been having issues with surface film forming, whenever I clear it, it reappears after 3-4 days as thick as before. Its an issue that has appeared ever since i've moved to my new place, im pretty sure its dust. As my new 15 gallon has the same problem and there's no fish/fish food in there. Could this affect the Ph?

Also that last shrimplet died today and I assume its because of the swinging Ph.

Anyone have any ideas?

Edited by WaldoDude
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sdlTBfanUK

Hmmmm, make sure you test at the same time of day each time, I have seen similar if I test first thing in the morning. I believe (read on internet, not sure how reliable te sourceS?) that PH fluctuates through the day and night. I  got silly readings the first time I did a test in the morning, but when I tested again lunch time (usual time) it was back to normal? I know this goes against everything you are told with shrimp keeping, but if it is 'natural' and probably happening in all tanks (?) then it's probably not a problem, it never affected my shrimp or fish! You could try the same test with the other tank and see if the same happens just to give you peace of mind? IF you did the test the same time of day as previously then let me know and we can have a rethink?

On the plus side though at least both tests are in line with each other so they are probably both right/accurate!

Don't worry about the PH reading, just make sure you set a regular time like I did for doing the tests, but avoid too early in the day. I can't comment on the film on the water but if it bothers you you could get a skimmer?

Most important though, have the shrimp stopped dying?

Simon

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WaldoDude

Ok I'll try and test at the same time and see what I find! 
As for the shrimp, all had died by the time I got that 7.6 ph reading last week. I had 1 shrimplet survive until yesterday when I found it dead.

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beanbag

u should just get a proper remineralizer like the GH/KH+.  But failing that, remineralize RO water to GH 6 (TDS 120) and then add baking soda (potassium bicarbonate preferred) until KH at least 3.  Then the TDS will be whatever, but remember this number for next time.

It is pointless to test the pH of pure RO water because there is no buffering effect / the ionic strength is too low, so the tests are meaningless.

With a KH of 3, the pH will not swing very much.  (I think the pH swings are due to lighting causing plants to suck CO2 out of the water.  The pH will be lower with lights off)

Anyway, I blame the problem on whatever is causing the surface film.  The water is obviously polluted.

Edited by beanbag
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WaldoDude

Ok so yesterday I tested the Ph at 12:45pm, it read 7.6. Then I did a water change (~20-30%).
Today I tested the PH at 12:45pm , and it read 7.6. At 5pm I tested again to see if theres a difference, and this time I got 8.0/.1 Is this a problem?
I've added a skimmer and it has solved the surface film issue 🙂 

Apart from my PH, the parameters are now:

KH - 3
GH - 6
TDS - 160
Temp - 22/23

Should I reintroduce cherry shrimp and see how it goes?

 

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sdlTBfanUK

I would give it a go with max. 10 to test it all out. Ensure you drip acclimate the new shrimps for as long as possible to give them the best chance!

Pleased to hear getting the skimmer has solved one problem, make sure it is set up so no shrimp can get in to it though.

I assume you have the RO water filter and are using that?

Simon

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WaldoDude

Ok cool, yep I'm using remineralised RO water.

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WaldoDude

Alright so I got 12 new red cherry shrimp (my lfs had a buy 12 get 20% off)  and 2 Australian Amano's which I'm excited about. Now I just tested the water again just to make sure all was good and again everything but the PH seems fine:

Ph - 8.2 (this is the highest I've seen it. Measured at 6pm) 
GH - 7
KH - 3
TDS - 161

So I'm hoping whatever it was that was killing the shrimp wasn't the PH and now that I've fixed my TDS and using RO water it will be ok.
I know was told not to worry too much about the PH considering now its gone beyond the maximum of 8 for cherries, should I be concerned? Either way I am more bugged by not knowing what is causing the Ph increases haha.

Quote

With a KH of 3, the pH will not swing very much.  (I think the pH swings are due to lighting causing plants to suck CO2 out of the water.  The pH will be lower with lights off)

Interestingly the PH seems to increases towards the end of the day. Plus with the skimmer I would have expected the extra aeration to help the ph drop.

Anyways fingers crossed this next batch will do alright. I am trying to drip acclimate them for atleast 4 hours. I was an idiot however, and without thinking added a cup of the tank water into the bucket before emptying the shrimp bag into it... 😬. I moved some of my darwins yesterday into my new tank and ofcourse had to add some tank water to move them in and thus accidently did the same thing here with the cherries ...

 

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sdlTBfanUK

I will keep my fingers crossed that all the changes you made work fine with this latest batch of shrimp!

From my reading and as Beanbag above I believe (and have seen myself) that PH does alter through day and night, which is why it is probably best to always do it at the same time of day and mid-day is probably the best? With the other parameters good I wouldn't expect the slightly high PH to cause too much of a problem now! It is advisable to try and reduce it slowly if you can tthough, in to the 7-8 range! It may sort itself out if you are using RO water as that should be lower PH?

Simon

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WaldoDude

Ok so, I think I have figured out why my PH sticking around the 8 mark. I decided to test my remineralised RODI water and I got a PH of 8/8.1 and I think the culprit is the Bicarb soda I'm using to raise the KH

Now @jayc you said:

Quote

All you need to do is add Bi Card Soda (not baking soda)

Looking at my Bicarb soda packaging, it says "Bi-Carb Soda" then underneath in smaller writing "Baking Soda", so I'm a bit confused as to which one it is haha. According to google, Bi-carb soda is the same as baking soda? its just that the later is an american term?
The Bicarb/Baking soda I'm using being the culprit makes sense as Baking soda has natural alkilinity of pH 8. 

Am I using the wrong thing? 😅

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jayc
2 hours ago, WaldoDude said:

I decided to test my remineralised RODI water and I got a PH of 8/8.1 and I think the culprit is the Bicarb soda I'm using to raise the KH?

Bicarb Soda is most certainly not the same as Baking Soda. 

Baking Soda has an acidity agent added,  usually cream of tartar.  It's for making  bubbles for fluffy cakes. Ever seen the bubbles created when adding vinegar to bicarb soda? That's what Baking Soda is doing.

The ingredients list should confirm if cream of tartar is added.

But that's besides the point now. You don't need it if you are reducing KH and thus pH. That advice was to address your question about raising KH. And yes, increasing KH means pH will also rise. Clearly you don't need that now. 

 

 

 

Edited by jayc
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sdlTBfanUK

I hope the new shrimp are dong well?

Test the PH of the water out of the RO machine, (before you add anything) usually that will be 5-6 unless, as per JayC, you are using the wrong type of RO equipment?

Simon

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WaldoDude

Cherry Shrimp seem alright so far. The Caridina Typhus hasnt seem to settle in yet, they do laps around the tank every now and then or hide in the corner, which I've heard is normal when they're new. 

The PH of the pure Ro water before i add anything is ~6.2. 

47 minutes ago, jayc said:

But that's besides the point now. You don't need it if you are reducing KH and thus pH. That advice was to address your question about raising KH. And yes, increasing KH means pH will also rise. Clearly you don't need that now. 

 I see, but wouldn't I still have to use it since I will always need to add KH to my RO water? If I stopped the KH of my ro water will be 0. Right now I add the Bi-carb soda until I get a KH of 3/4. Also would increasing my KH from 0 to 3/4 cause such a big increase in ph? (from 6.2 to 8 )

Cheers!
 

 

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sdlTBfanUK

Good to her that the new shrimps are doing well!

I would bite the bullet and make your life so much easier and buy the GH/KH+ shrimp product, that with RO water will produce the right water in ALL parameters, as long as there isn't anything in the tank such as rock that alters it out of those preset parameters. The new water you add will be the perfect balance of GH/KH/PH/TDS and you only need to prepare it using TDS meter (make it to TDS 160 etc) so it is very easy and straightforward. As long as the new shrimp seem fine I would just start using this new water from now on so it will very slowly make any adjustments, so shouldn't harm the shrimp - I wouldn't do any large water change if all seems fine for now?

As JayC mentioned, if you are using baking soda it probably isn't the right product?

It may even end up costing you less as well as making life easier in the longer term.

Simon

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WaldoDude

Haha yea thats what i was thinking. Easy and straightforward is what I need!  I dont know which of the two my "Bi-carb soda - baking soda" is 😅 but Im assuming its the wrong one. Either way I plan on not having to deal with it in the future and just get the GH/KH

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beanbag

The one you want to avoid is "baking powder" which has the extra acid in it.

 

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WaldoDude

It seems the Salty Shrimp remineralisers have all gone out of stock in australia. I could get some from the US through ebay/amazon but the shipping charges are as expensive as the product! Finding an alternative also seems to be hard.
I did come across this though and its what I'm thinking of going with for now: 
Shrimp mineral liquid GH+ kh 100ml - https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Shrimp-mineral-liquid-GH-kh-100ml-For-Neocaridina/224116042105?hash=item342e5b6979:g:FYsAAOSwOQ9fNKkA

 

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      The yellow cherry aren't kept with reds, they just bred from that colony and now are by themselves but yeah ill probably seperate the shrimps in questions and find out thanks heaps!
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      That is what I would so, as you say they are still attractive and time may help work it out, the colouris quite cherry but the markings are more caridina. If your caridina came from a mixed tank (as it sounds like it did) then it could be some kind of caridina hybrid (the stripes down the back are quite Pinto), assuming you got a female if you only got the 1? Of coarse if you only got one female Caridina you may want to leave the oddbods in with it to breed and you could get a fabulous mix of patterns and colours from them dependant on the genes they carry??? It is difficult to tell the sex of the caridina in the picture as it has its back arched upwards. On the other hand, if you have only had the caridina a few months is the oddbod too big to have been born since the adult was added. And if the yellow cherrys were mixed with red cherry they would revert back to wild quickly! Shrimps carry the eggs and they hatch from the mothers underside. If you aren't sure it may be best to put them in a seperate tank (for now) as you say you may do. Fingers crossed they are caridina! I hope you will keep us informed. Simon
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