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Having a scud problem, need a patriot missle


Healingeagle

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Hello everyone! My primary reason I looked for a shrimp forum was because I'm having an issue with scuds! I paid for this pain in the ass problem, did it to myself. A few years back I was sold scuds as something that would be good for my tank and give my fish some live food. I had no problems with them until I set up my shrimp tank with no predators.

Now they are over populating in my shrimp tank with no predation. They are eating plants have actually killed some, and they are killing shrimp I'm convinced, as my shrimp population has stopped growing.

I NEED A NUCLEAR OPTION! I don't need any advice to feed less or get some fish that will keep them at bay. Anything that'll eat is scud will eat a baby shrimp. I want them gone! There has got to be something like "panacur c" that will kill all snails and not kill plants but insread kills scuds!

I've just set up 5 new soon to be shrimp tanks and the first one I did already managed to get infected with scud before there is even shrinp in it! I'm so frustrated! 

3 weeks ago I spent 10 hours fishing my shrimp out of their tank then fishing any scuds that got accidentally captured out then catching the shrimp again and putting them in a new clean tank. Found a scud two days ago! 

I've spent hours looking for information on the Web to no avail.

Short of destroying everything and starting from scratch I'm clueless what to do I'm not anal enough about tank cleanliness to not eventually contaminate all my new shrimp tanks.

DOES ANYBODY HAVE A NUCLEAR OPTION FOR ME?!! I need some meds or something that kills scuds and not plants. I've got thousands of dollars in plants!

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Sorry to hear your having problems.

I don't know of a chemical solution as they are pretty much the same as shrimps so any treatment would likely also kill the shrimps.

I know you say not fish but that is what I would do. I had an infested tank with seed shrimp and the (killie and maybe dwarf rasbora) fish wiped those out in days.  Once you feel the scuds have been cleared you can then remove the fish much easier than trying to catch all the scuds as well. If you have several tanks then just move the fish between the tanks to drastically reduce or (hopefully) wipe the scuds out? As you say, you likely will lose some baby shrimps but as long as the tanks have enough places for the shrimp babies to hide you should be ok. My oldest tank has had lots of tetras (neon and ember) over the years and there hasn't ever been any shortage of baby shrimps, but they are small tetras.

I had some waterlouse get into the tank (I believe they are what you call scuds???) when I started it and added leaves which I got from a pond which the louse must have been on, and I re-set the tank and thankfully haven't seen any since but thats a lot of work and not gauranteed to work or rid them all, though it should, as long as you use all new stuff?

I understand why you don't want to use fish, but I would try fish in the tank (do 1 tank at a time, try it out with the new tank that hasn't got shrimps in it yet but does have scud) and move the shrimp out to another temporary scud free (bare maybe) tank when the fish are added to the relevant tank? I don't believe scud kill shrimp but probably out compete them for food?

I hope someone here will be able to offer you an easier non fish solution?

Simon

ps, sorry for recommending fish (temporarily) after you said you don't want to go that route, but if nothing else works it is a cheap, safe and fairly straight forward/easy possible solution???

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I don't think Fish will ever clear them. They hang out in the nooks and crannies, fish keep them at a low population, remove fish and problem starts to build again. I don't have shrimp in the tanks most of them anyway. And honestly at this point if it killed all the scuds (gammarus shrimp) I would be willing to lose all the shrimps I have at this time. I'm getting ready to get some quality shrimps and I'm so tired of these scuds I'll do just about anything. 

My problem is I've got so much plant value that I need the nuke to kill them. 

Do you know a treatment that will whipe out shrimp and not plants? Scuds are super tough unfortunately think they can handle more than shrimp. But I'll dose high and see if it works.

Scuds kill the shrimp when they molt. As far as moving shrimp. Doesn't work. I spent 10 hours moving the shrimp out of bad tank. Moved them into an empty 10 gallon fished out any scuds that made it, then moved them again into there new clean home. 3 weeks later scuds. The baby's are so small you can't see them. Not a swarm but you find a few and in 6 or 10 months is back to scud hell. These things are like cockroaches.  I need some RAID!

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I know what you mean, I have a pond and the bottom of that is covered with them, I thin  they are a bit creepy so wasn't hapy to find  few in my tank.

Probably competely emptying one tank at a time and resting it is the only way I can think of doing it. Treat everything as if itis infected, ie don't use nets you  use in tanks with scuds in any tans without scuds so there cannot be any transfer. If you do transfer shrimp get them into a glass first so yu can check them over before they go into the new tank etc.Obviosly you will need new substrate, plants etc., don't use anything that has been in a tank with scuds. You could quaratine plants from the infected tanks in a clear container (indvidually) so you can check and see if you get any scuds come out, not sure whether putting the plants into a salt bath may kill the scuds if they are left in there long enough (but not too long that will harm the plant), you could catch some scuds and put them in salted water and see how long they survive that? I might even try tabesalt as all you want to do is kill the scuds, then wash the plant clean of the salt, worth a try???

I understand what you mean about unlikely to get them all with fish but it is possible it would work, especially if you only have the fish in the tank, and leave it like that for a month so any babies will have grown to a size where the fish would see and eat them! A few Pea (or other small) puffers maybe - they eat any/everything?

The main thing is that you don't transfer any scud between tanks so, as I say, you should get one net for tanks with scud and a new one to be used only  in tanks without scud and don't transfer anything from an infested tank into one of you new setups without being ridiculously cautious, cleaning, quarantining etc.

How many tanks have the scuds and are they fairly manageable sizes, if it is only a couple at the moment it probably would be easiest to empty those, clean them and start again (which is what I did) but DO NOT re-use anything taken from an infested tank without being VERY sure they are completely scud free (I did re-use plants after a few days in glasses and checked over and I haven't had any since). The scud can only get in the tank if you put them there, albeit unwhitingly. I no-longer use leaves from the pond in my tanks, not going through that again!

I hope someone on here will be able to give you some other alternatives. I will be interested to follow your journey having had that same problem!

Simon 

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How do you suggest I move thick cryptocoryne there is no way to clean this. Ripping up all my tanks and throwing everything out I cannot boil or bleach is my option if someone does not have a chemical fix for me. Fish do not work at total elimination. I have tried moving and cleaning and they come back. To stop them from the new tanks I woukd need to be OCD CLEAN and that's not going to happen with me. They are eventually going to infect the tanks.

So does anybody have a CHEMICAL SOLUTION to kill scuds(gammarus shrimp) or know something that would wipe out regular shrimp I could try? I've spent so much time trying to find a solution for this someone needs to have something to help please please please.

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To give you an idea

210 Gallon, 2 x 125 gallon, 2 x 120 gallon, 2 x 75 gallon, 4 x 40 gallon 65 tall, plusses many small tanks. CHEMICAL OPTION NEEDED 

 

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Healingeagle, sounds like you are at a point of declaring war on the scuds.

One effective chemical that will kill scuds is Copper Sulfate. You can find them in crystals. Don't ask me where you can buy them from. I spend my whole hobby lifetime avoiding copper, so when it comes to acquiring them ... I have no idea. Actually, try garden stores. They will have some. 0.15 to 0.2ppm is the suggested treatment level.

You can also use chelated copper as well. 

Some argue that chelating drastically reduces the effectiveness of copper, citing the loss of positive charge of the copper ion that has long been held to be the reason that copper works in the first place. This argument seems buttressed by the fact that chelated coppers require a much higher dose to be effective. (The recommended dosage for most of these products is a target value of 1.5 to 2.0 PPM. The obvious difference is that chelation allows use of copper at 10 times the dosage of non-chelated copper.)

 

BUT !!!

Any treatment on scud is going to impact shrimps and other invertebrates as well.

So if you are going to try copper, move out as many shrimp as you can into a bare bottom tank temporarily. A bare bottom tank is so you can see any that might have moved across, one or two can be siphoned out easily.

Do not come back saying that your shrimps have died. This is fair warming.

 

On the plus side it will also treat algae. But some simple plants like mosses might also be affected. Higher order plants should be fine, or so I've read but don't blame me if that is not true. Like I said, I have avoided all traces of copper in my tanks as much as possible, so I wouldn't know. ?

 

Additional tips:

Scuds will also hide in the gravel/substrate, so if you can ... stir up the gravel during the copper treatment. Use a gravel vac during water changes. 

Get a copper test kit. You will need that to maintain a 0.15ppm - 0.2ppm (non chelated copper sulfate) or 1.5-2.0 ppm level (for chelated copper sulfate). And to test for copper after treatment to ensure it is safe for the shrimps to return. Any residual traces will also kill the shrimp. 

Copper sulfate has a propensity to precipitate out of solution rapidly or to "bind" to other ions in the water. So re-treatment is needed after a few days. I would leave this in the tank for at least a week to be safe. Then do a water change and re-treat for another few days if you fear them coming back. Remember, they can hide deep in the substrate. So as per tip 1 above, stir it up a bit if you can to get the copper treated water down into the bottom levels of the gravel/substrate.

Reduce the water level in the tank as much as possible to reduce the amount of copper used. You have quite a few large tanks there.

Any tanks that don't have plants and shrimp should be drained completely and the substrate should be boiled. Or pour boiling water on the gravel straight from a kettle.

 

 

Edited by jayc
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I had a quick look on Amazon and they seem  to sell copper sulphate if you get stuck!

One other thing occured to me, can you ramp up the heat and cook the buggers, I have had heaters stuck on twice and it has not killed the plants but has killed shrimp on the first occassion and fish on the second? You could try that in one infested tank and if it works then try the others? If you reduce the wate level as JayC recommends for the copper sulphate that will help do this too, less water to heat, you could even boil some dechlorated water in a kettle to speed the process up but pour that well away from the tank glass? Just a thought anyway! Again you could try putting some scuds in a container with a heater to find out whether it works and what the temperature required will be first???

Simon

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Love is in the air! Thank you so much.  I don't care about anything left in the tanks. I just want to never see a scud again! I figure anything that kill them will probably kill everything else including the fish. I j7st dont want my plants flaped. Im going to give this a go in my overrun ex shrimp tank. Cannot get a worse infestation than that! I use a plenum in all my tanks so getting it through the substrate will be easy and also to rinsing it out. With panacur c treatment for worms it will last 2 months minimum if you don't flush well. I had snails die I put in a month after treatment. But it works miracle in shrimp tanks with planaria.

 

Ok I'm going to figure this out maybe even hit my first tank today with a dose of copper.

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Found a 4oz bottle of mardel copper safe on my medicine shelf! To think the solution could have been feet away the whole time!

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First tank dosed! I'm not flapen around! I had thought maybe copper a few months ago but I did not want to just experiment I figured someone out there with shrimp would have an answer for me! Doing a happy dance right now

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I saw this the oter day and it may be worth considering as a precaution once you have done the JayC treatment, assuming you have the setup that you can use it in? It is an American product so must be available there!

https://www.seachem.com/cuprisorb.php

A bit premature at this point I know, but wanted to add the link before I lose/forget about it.

Good luck with the Copper treatment.

Simon

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Thanks that looks usefully I'm a bit nervous about my cryptocoryne and want that copper out quick

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Watching this page closely as I'm in the same boat, albeit a much smaller and easier to fix boat with only 1 X 28L tank to deal with. Means I don't have anywhere to quarantine the shrimp in the mean time though. May need to get a second tank for that purpose.

Shrimp come first for me though so won't be coming anywhere near copper. The drain and boil technique seems the simplest. Would just need to catch all 100 CRS first. Though the carbonated water technique is interesting as it wouldn't kill my plants. If anyone has had success with these methods, I would be keen to hear it!

 

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5 hours ago, EBC said:

May need to get a second tank for that purpose.

Or just a large clean bucket with an airstone will do the job temporarily.

 

5 hours ago, EBC said:

Though the carbonated water technique is interesting as it wouldn't kill my plants.

You would still need to catch the shrimps out. Carbonated water will kill your shrimps.

If you are going to clear the tank out, than faced with a choice between carbonated water or boiling water ... the boiling water will work better, if you have no plants. But carbonated water will work better in a tank with plants.

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23 minutes ago, jayc said:

Or just a large clean bucket with an airstone will do the job temporarily.

 

You would still need to catch the shrimps out. Carbonated water will kill your shrimps.

If you are going to clear the tank out, than faced with a choice between carbonated water or boiling water ... the boiling water will work better, if you have no plants. But carbonated water will work better in a tank with plants.

Yeah I was thinking a large bucket would work. Would need another though as my only large bucket stores my RO water. Could stand to have another though I am sure my fiance is tired of seeing buckets all over the apartment! Between the shrimp and my bonsai, I have more than a couple around!

Would I need to let the tank sit dry for any amount of time for eggs and things that might be on the glass to die? Wouldn't want to get everything reset, only for some hidden eggs to hatch and have to do it all over again. Also would boiling water alter the buffering capacity of the substrate at all? It is Fluval Shrimp Stratum. Could always just replace it as it has probably been 4 years or so with the same substrate but I am keen to see how long I can go with the same substrate. 

Regarding the carbonated water, on further thought, just pulling up the plants is a better idea and rescaping after. Nothing fancy I am worried about disturbing.

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1 hour ago, EBC said:

Yeah I was thinking a large bucket would work. Would need another though as my only large bucket stores my RO water. Could stand to have another though I am sure my fiance is tired of seeing buckets all over the apartment! Between the shrimp and my bonsai, I have more than a couple around!

Would I need to let the tank sit dry for any amount of time for eggs and things that might be on the glass to die? Wouldn't want to get everything reset, only for some hidden eggs to hatch and have to do it all over again. Also would boiling water alter the buffering capacity of the substrate at all? It is Fluval Shrimp Stratum. Could always just replace it as it has probably been 4 years or so with the same substrate but I am keen to see how long I can go with the same substrate. 

Regarding the carbonated water, on further thought, just pulling up the plants is a better idea and rescaping after. Nothing fancy I am worried about disturbing.

I emptied my tank of everything but left the substrate in place but it seemed to work and I haven't had any since (years ago now), but I probably caught it really quickly!

Going to all that effort I would change the substrate as well as it probably needs changing anyway/soon and the louse or eggs could be in the substrate hiding, would be madness not too change it really if you are doing all this work anyway. Obviously don't put boiling water into an empty aquarium as it may crack the class? Like shrimp the eggs are carried around by the louse but some may have dropped? Completely emptying the tank, thoroughly cleaning/drying the glass and replacing with new substrate should be enough, I would quarantine the plants though to make sure there aren't any on those, well anything that is going back really.

As JayC says, you can use a bucket, or any other clean, plastic container! I think I reused the water from the tank as well pouring it through a fine net, then wash the net in boiling water once finished! 

If you want to be doubly sure, you could put some carbonated water in the tank once you have cleaned it all, deep enough to go above where the substrate line was and leave that over night, then empty that and dry it thoroughly again before starting the new setup?

On the plus side, once re-setup that is probably the biggest job done for many years to come.

Simon

Edited by sdlTBfanUK
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I agree, if you are pulling the tank down, and the substrate needs a change, I would do it all at once. 

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So to let everyone know how the copper dose is working, we'll at normal recommended dosage a see live scud flapers still swimming  like all is well. I'm worried about raising the level, gonna kill my plants.

As far as cleaning and moving your shrimp EBC, there will be babies. Tiny little pin points. I spent 10 hours cleaning my shrimp colony. Moved them into a empty tank then fished out all the scuds I saw them moved them into another tank. It was a bitch. 3 weeks later I see little babies on my glass. All that work for nothing.

 

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sdITBfanUK you said you used carbonated water. How much? How long? Could I use straight co2 and overdose the tank? I don't have a co2 setup but I cannot imagine how much carbonated water I woukd need to use!

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Articwolf you made the carbonated water suggestion, how do you use the carbonated water? How much, how long, what's the protocol? 

Thx

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1 hour ago, Healingeagle said:

As far as cleaning and moving your shrimp EBC, there will be babies. Tiny little pin points. I spent 10 hours cleaning my shrimp colony. Moved them into a empty tank then fished out all the scuds I saw them moved them into another tank. It was a bitch.

Luckily (or unluckily) I don't really seem to have many babies right now. I am well versed in tearing the tank down from living in apartments where I need to tear down the tank every time I move. Last time I did it, there were tonnes of babies. I imagine I will still find a couple this time, but the reason I am planning on killing the scuds is I think they are out-competing the babies which is why I haven't seen many since the scuds really took hold.

My plan is to catch all the shrimp, put them in a pail with an airstone as suggested, tear down the tank, remove all the substrate, clean all surfaces, let it dry for a day or so, add fresh substrate, let it cycle empty for a day or two and reintroduce the shrimp.

For my plants, I plan to pull them all up, put them in a 10L bucket and let them sit in carbonated water while the above is going on. Maybe do one carbonated water change. If I still see any in the pail with the plants after all this, I will just dump them and get some new plants.

Does anyone have a good quarantine method for new plants? My current issue comes from the plants I bought at a local fish shop. Would like to avoid reintroducing anything.

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7 hours ago, Healingeagle said:

sdITBfanUK you said you used carbonated water. How much? How long? Could I use straight co2 and overdose the tank? I don't have a co2 setup but I cannot imagine how much carbonated water I woukd need to use!

I haven't used carbonated water, I caught it really early and managed to catch them all with a net!

Simon

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6 hours ago, EBC said:

Luckily (or unluckily) I don't really seem to have many babies right now. I am well versed in tearing the tank down from living in apartments where I need to tear down the tank every time I move. Last time I did it, there were tonnes of babies. I imagine I will still find a couple this time, but the reason I am planning on killing the scuds is I think they are out-competing the babies which is why I haven't seen many since the scuds really took hold.

My plan is to catch all the shrimp, put them in a pail with an airstone as suggested, tear down the tank, remove all the substrate, clean all surfaces, let it dry for a day or so, add fresh substrate, let it cycle empty for a day or two and reintroduce the shrimp.

For my plants, I plan to pull them all up, put them in a 10L bucket and let them sit in carbonated water while the above is going on. Maybe do one carbonated water change. If I still see any in the pail with the plants after all this, I will just dump them and get some new plants.

Does anyone have a good quarantine method for new plants? My current issue comes from the plants I bought at a local fish shop. Would like to avoid reintroducing anything.

I took out the plants and put them in a bucket of the old tank water then took one plant at a time and put that in dechlorinated tap water in a glass jug and got a magnifying glass and checked it over before putting the plant back into the tank. I would put the plants in a bucket of tank water then take each plant out and put it into something clear filled with water (glass jug etc) so you can look it over in detail, if it looks ok put it into another bucket with carbonated water for a few days (maybe a week), check it over again and if it looks ok put it in the tank! If you see dead scuds in the bucket you know it has worked so you should be safe using those plants (still check them thoroughly), but if you aren't sure it would be safer to get new plants of coarse, this would be more expensive but much quicker, as then, with cleaned tank, new substrate and plants you don't even need to DO anything about the bugs, so problem solved?

Everything you re-use, filter sponges etc should be checked over carefully before going back into the new setup, shrimp included so it will be laborious!. Clean the net by soaking that in boiling water once you have finished.

Simon

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10 hours ago, Healingeagle said:

carbonated water. How much? How long? Could I use straight co2 and overdose the tank?

Assuming you drain the whole tank, and have water no higher than the height of the substrate, than buy enough carbonated water to cover the substrate.

Carbonated water can also be called Soda water, or Sparkling mineral water.

Don't go buying the expensive stuff like PELLEGRINO. Just the cheapest bottle of sparkling water will do.

You would want to leave it for a couple of hours at least. 

75cents for this bottle in Australia.

Just pour this straight into the tank. Enough to cover the gravel where the scuds are hiding.

Any extra can be had with some whiskey, while you sit back and watch the scuds suffocate.

Benefits of drinking soda water - Fojusi.com

 

CO2 injection from a CO2 system would just gas out of the water. You won't get anywhere near the same amount as replacing the tank water with carbonated water.

 

But you said copper is working, so just up the dose. If you don't want to nuke the plants, than either remove them or do a water change after a few hours of copper nuking the scuds.

Remember the more water you can drain out of the tank, the more effective whatever you choose to use will be, be it carbonated water or copper.

Edited by jayc
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