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A single shrimp is sick, maybe


beanbag

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Hello folks,

I have a tank with Taiwan Bee shrimps for about 6 months now and generally everything is fine, and the shrimp made babies and the babies are generally doing ok now.  So probably all the water parameters and etc are fine because all the other shrimp seem to be doing ok.  However, I have this one Red Wine Panda that seems to be sick.  I didn't notice this until two days ago, but maybe it started sooner.  The shrimp is a little bit pink-ish (only in the middle white section) and on closer inspection, maybe the white part is a little more clear than the other shrimps.  It stays in one area of the tank all the time and doesn't go out during feeding time.  Mostly it just stands around, waves its antenae, and walks around a little bit.  It still does graze and eat sometimes, so things are not that bad yet.  I suspect it could be a bacterial infection, but I had also read that when they get that, their antennae tend to get shorter / broken off.  The only thing I have done to my tank "out of the ordinary" is about 3 weeks ago I dosed a very small amount of Dr Tim's Waste Away, which killed off 3-4 babies, but left the other shrimp unaffected.

Anyway, my question is what to do about it:

0) Typical shrimp keeping advice: Don't make any changes and don't do anything.  Maybe it'll get better by itself.

1) Somehow make the overall tank more anti-bacterial - Indian almond leaf, or H2O2 treatment (reluctant to do this if it will nuke the babies)

2) Isolate this shrimp in one part of the tank and feed it "immune boosting foods" like stuff with Beta Glucans, Shrimp Fit, etc

3) Isolate this shrimp in one part of the tank and feed it food soaked in oregano oil

4) Totally remove it from the tank so I can start dosing the water column with stuff.  I would have to set up a new quarantine tank, though.

 

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It depends how much work and risk you want to take? I tend not to take risks with sick fish or shrimp and would whip it out ASAP then if you have the time and inclination put it into a seperate tank to try treatments but I wouldn't try anything with it is the tank with the others. If you have a good number of shrimps I would probably just cull it in reality (sorry to be so blunt) rather than risk the others, or if I had an empty small tank just put it in that and see what happens in a few days. I certainy wouldn't try treating it with the other shrimps in the main tank though........

It may be related to the waste away you used? Might it just be trying (failing) to moult, though I doubt it if it has been a few days?

Simon

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Let me try to address some of your options you listed.

 

1) This is a low risk option. IAL and H2O2 is safe. Unless you overdose on H2O2, but that is the same with anything, if you overdose that is. Just don't overdose. You should try this if you have IAL and the equipment for H2O2.

2) You should isolate this shrimp if it is possibly sick anyway. But you might have limited luck trying to get it to eat. Beta Glucan, aka quick oats/porridge, is cheap so try it.

3) Isolate, asap. We can't confirm this is bacteria. Have you got a pic at least? A new hospital tank with clean water (parameters matched), might help out a sick shrimp. This "tank" doesn't have to be a purpose built aquarium. I have used plastic buckets with an air stone for purposes like this before. Temporary and much cheaper. IF this is indeed a bacterial thing, Oregano oil will help the sooner it is used, especially if we can still get the shrimp to eat. But definitely treat the shrimp separately in a hospital tank.

4) Remove the sick shrimp, but hold off on treating the whole main tank. Unless you start seeing more shrimps getting sick with the same symptoms.

 

 

Edited by jayc
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Sounds like the problem I had with chitinolytic bacterial disease.  I fought that for weeks and weeks.

Oregano oil , H2O2 dosing, and salt dips worker from me,  but, it was tough.

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Here is a picture of the shrimp.  Due to whatever camera settings and lighting, it could be difficult to tell from the picture, but I can say that the white band around the eyes and the middle white section are "a bit pink" whereas the tail and last white segment is mostly white, but not gleaming white.  It's antennae and appendages still seem intact (I read that problems with these are an early sign of bacterial infection).

What happened yesterday is that I set up a mini-quarantine tank inside my main tank (so it can share temperature control and lighting).  When I put the shrimp in, it swam around in a panicked state and eventually climbed over the edge back into the main tank.  Then it started grazing like a normal shrimp.  At this point, I fed it some barley and a piece of oat and it chowed down on them for several minutes.  Then resumed grazing for several hours until I went to sleep. 

Today it seems to be very quiet, though.  If it put it into quarantine again (this time in a better setup where it won't escape) what should I do with it?  I imagine first I would try the oregano oil-soaked food, and if it doesn't eat, I will have to resort to dosing the water?

In possibly related news, I think there is something slightly off in my tank again.  Even though the babies and blue bolts are doing fine, the other red wine panda shrimp tend to be quiet during the day and gather in one area but become active at night.  Looking thru my shrimp notebook, I have had this happen before, and usually it is because I have fed several days in a row beforehand.  So maybe the water is getting a little polluted, even though I use a feeding dish, or feed leaf foods.

tri-rwp.jpg

Edited by beanbag
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On 4/19/2020 at 5:58 PM, Steensj2004 said:

Sounds like the problem I had with chitinolytic bacterial disease. 

What were the symptoms of your shrimp, in terms of appearance and behavior?  (Not just that they died)

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8 minutes ago, beanbag said:

What were the symptoms of your shrimp, in terms of appearance and behavior?  (Not just that they died)

The primary symptom was a slow color change in the white areas of the shell. At first it looked like a light pink dusting. Over time, it slowly darkened to darker pink, then to a brown, and eventually you’d find a dead one with black spots in those brown areas. The shells also slowly lost their shine. The shrimp act seemingly normal, and you don’t see them become lethargic until the late stages of deterioration.

Edited by Steensj2004
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41 minutes ago, Steensj2004 said:

The primary symptom was a slow color change in the white areas of the shell. At first it looked like a light pink dusting. Over time, it slowly darkened to darker pink, then to a brown, and eventually you’d find a dead one with black spots in those brown areas. The shells also slowly lost their shine. The shrimp act seemingly normal, and you don’t see them become lethargic until the late stages of deterioration.

That doesn't sound like my case.  That one guy is already lethargic while being a little pink

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Might still be worth trying steensj2004 food soaked in oregano oil and/or H2O2 as that may work? I would treat it as you planned in a seperate container so little risk to the rest if something goes wrong.

Simon

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1 hour ago, beanbag said:

That doesn't sound like my case.  That one guy is already lethargic while being a little pink

I cannot say with certainty that he wouldn’t be lethargic this early in. Each shrimp seems to handle it differently. A few stayed pink before they died. So, unless you’re aware of another disease which changes the white parts of CRS pink, I’d say we have the same issue. 
 

I maintenance dose H202, you can go up to 2ml per gallon. MAKE SURE YOU’VE ACCURATELY ESTIMATED YOUR ACTUAL WATER VOLUME. A 10 gallon doesn’t have 10 gallons of water in it after the substrate/rocks displace some of the water. For example, my Waterbox 10 gallon cube has exactly 8.4 gallons of water inside, so I could dose up to 16.8ml or H2O2. I recommend starting with 1ml per gallon. Make sure to shut down all your filters  before adding, and leave them off for 1 hour. H202 can adversely effect your biological filter, but I’ve had zero issues as long as I leave my filters off for a minimum of 1 hour. I dose H202 2x a week @ 1ml per gallon.
 

My shrimp Are also backside-holes, and dislike MOST prepared foods. If you add diluted oregano oil to food, they may not eat it. Try another type. I have 4 types of food they will eat, only 2 types get eaten when it has the oil added. 
 

I tried  salt dips too, but I’m not sure how effective they were. Additionally, I removed several severely infected shrimp from the tank, and dropped diluted oregano oil onto their( avoiding the head/gill area)abdomens. This is extreme, but I had 100% survival and 4/5 were cured within 48 hours. This was extreme, and I can’t promise anything if you want to try it.

The ONLY treatment I didn’t try was Antibiotics/ or Big L’s Dewormer. My disease is back after being eradicated for some time. I assume it survived in the water column? The babies born in the tank, and my Crystal Black Shrimp don’t seem to get the disease. If I can’t get this worked out, I may transfer the shrimp, remove my filters,  and nuke the tank with antibiotics and deworming medicine. I’ll keep my filters running on/in another tank and add them back to recycle before reading shrimp. I’ll treat the shrimp in an empty, bare bottom hospital tank with H202 and oregano oil foods while I wait for the recycle of the main tank. Simon suggested  a bare bottom as the food/grazing options will be diminished, so they may ingest the treated food more readily. 


 

 

Edited by Steensj2004
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Oh, I forgot to add, doing treatments in a separate tank is probably best. I can’t promise the bacteria ( or whatever causes this)won’t still exist in your main tank. However, you would be able to increase treatment in a hospital container without risking your main tank. IE, 3ml of h202 for short bursts of the 2ml isn’t effective.

 

My newest tank was cycled with a very biodiverse mix from Mark at Marks Shrimp Tanks. I’m trying to keep good bacteria levels in propped proportion to possibly keep the bad bacteria I suspect causes this from being able to exist. Not sure it will work...

Edited by Steensj2004
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Just a thought!

If you soak food in oregano oil but the shrimp don't eat it directly, won't that oil be grradualy released into the water still but much slower, so still doing something?

Simon

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34 minutes ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

Just a thought!

If you soak food in oregano oil but the shrimp don't eat it directly, won't that oil be grradualy released into the water still but much slower, so still doing something?

Simon

I would say, yes. However, the dilution would yield such a small percentage of oil into the water, I don’t know if you could feed enough food to dose the tank without nuking the tank with rotting food. I dose BacterAE in a test kit glass vial, with the oil water. I add the BacterAE and water into the vial, then shake  violently, and allow to soak for 3-5 minutes. The shrimp seem to like BacterAE, so its a method I use. I also use pellets by dripping the oil water into them, allow them to absorb the water, then add to the food dish.

Edited by Steensj2004
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14 hours ago, Steensj2004 said:

I cannot say with certainty that he wouldn’t be lethargic this early in. Each shrimp seems to handle it differently. A few stayed pink before they died. So, unless you’re aware of another disease which changes the white parts of CRS pink, I’d say we have the same issue. 
 

I maintenance dose H202, you can go up to 2ml per gallon. MAKE SURE YOU’VE ACCURATELY ESTIMATED YOUR ACTUAL WATER VOLUME. A 10 gallon doesn’t have 10 gallons of water in it after the substrate/rocks displace some of the water. For example, my Waterbox 10 gallon cube has exactly 8.4 gallons of water inside, so I could dose up to 16.8ml or H2O2. I recommend starting with 1ml per gallon. Make sure to shut down all your filters  before adding, and leave them off for 1 hour. H202 can adversely effect your biological filter, but I’ve had zero issues as long as I leave my filters off for a minimum of 1 hour. I dose H202 2x a week @ 1ml per gallon.
 

My shrimp Are also backside-holes, and dislike MOST prepared foods. If you add diluted oregano oil to food, they may not eat it. Try another type. I have 4 types of food they will eat, only 2 types get eaten when it has the oil added. 
 

I tried  salt dips too, but I’m not sure how effective they were. Additionally, I removed several severely infected shrimp from the tank, and dropped diluted oregano oil onto their( avoiding the head/gill area)abdomens. This is extreme, but I had 100% survival and 4/5 were cured within 48 hours. This was extreme, and I can’t promise anything if you want to try it.

The ONLY treatment I didn’t try was Antibiotics/ or Big L’s Dewormer. My disease is back after being eradicated for some time. I assume it survived in the water column? The babies born in the tank, and my Crystal Black Shrimp don’t seem to get the disease. If I can’t get this worked out, I may transfer the shrimp, remove my filters,  and nuke the tank with antibiotics and deworming medicine. I’ll keep my filters running on/in another tank and add them back to recycle before reading shrimp. I’ll treat the shrimp in an empty, bare bottom hospital tank with H202 and oregano oil foods while I wait for the recycle of the main tank. Simon suggested  a bare bottom as the food/grazing options will be diminished, so they may ingest the treated food more readily.

Thanks for the reply and the summary of what you tried.  A few points:

I think the pinkness is not specifically the skin disease, it could just be a symptom of more general bacterial malaise.

So far, I gave the shrimp oregano-soaked mulberry pellet and Shrimp King mineral which it normally likes but won't eat now.  I also tried an un-soaked oat, which it used to like, and it's not eating it either.  So either I was too late to put it in quarantine, or maybe it really hates the oregano.  I tried very carefully to dose it to the levels recommended in that research paper of 2.5 ul / g, but the oil tends to float on top of the water, so it was kind of hard to control the dosage.

Maybe I will have to dose the water column after all.  I also have API Doxycycline, BTW.

Salt dip - I think those are designed for external parasites

I have also noticed that red /white shrimp seem more susceptible to these kinds of problems.  Maybe it is due to too selective breeding to get high grades.  My low-grade blue bolts seem more durable.

As for the situation regarding your recurring problem, my current theory is that bacteria are always around at some low level, but if something is off, the shrimp's immunity goes down and it is more likely to catch it.  This is my theory, but some of the things we can do are:

  • Make sure the water is clean, so enough water change, maybe occasional H2O2, and don't pollute the water from over-feeding or left over food
  • Improve shrimp's immunity with Beta Glucans and citric acid (this was one of the things recommended by Mark's Shrimp Tanks, although that info is 2 years old by now and I don't know if he still stands by it)
  • I was also considering dosing Dr Tim's Eco Balance, because maybe that can displace the bad bacteria, but I don't know if that counts as one of those "You don't need it - you're doing too much" kind of things.

For people like us, those things are hard to balance because on one hand you want to "do stuff" for the shrimp to have them eat well, but then you have to "do less" to avoid water pollution.

Just as a minor aside rant, I get kind of pissed off when I ask shrimp experts about these kinds of problems, and they just give dismissive advice about "you're trying to do too much".  This forum is good in the sense that the people here aren't like that.

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14 minutes ago, beanbag said:

they just give dismissive advice about "you're trying to do too much".  This forum is good in the sense that the people here aren't like that

They say that because they don't have a clue. So dismissing it is the easiest answer.

 

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Just an update to say that the shrimp in isolation hasn't eaten anything, whether oregano-soaked or not, and mostly just stands around.  It started off with water from the main tank.  How do I treat this shrimp differently than usual?  More water change?  Add IAL to drop the pH some more?  Start dosing the water with something, like oregano oil or antibiotic?  (I haven't fed any of the powdered foods like Bacter AE or Shrimp Fit so as not to pollute the water if the shrimp isn't going to eat it anyway)

Edited by beanbag
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My experience with dosing Oil into the water was bad. Up to you. I would suggest:

 

-Salt water dip for 45 seconds. 
-H202 Dose or Dip

-Removing the shrimp and dripping diluted oil water into the abdomen , being careful not to hit the gill area. I had 5/5 survive this, and 4/5 completely beat the disease. It’s risky, though.

-Antibiotic treatment. I haven’t tried this yet.

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I recall that you did something like 2 ml oil to 17 gal water, which is about 20x the dose if the oil were from API Melafix instead.  So I would be trying a much lower dose than you did, and maybe increase it gradually.  Did you ever go back and try a lower dose?

As for applying the oil individually, how much did you dilute it?

 

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dang it, just realized that my H2O2 has stabilizers in it.  Wasn't listed as an ingredient, but called itself "Hydrogen peroxide (stabilized)"

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1 hour ago, beanbag said:

I recall that you did something like 2 ml oil to 17 gal water, which is about 20x the dose if the oil were from API Melafix instead.  So I would be trying a much lower dose than you did, and maybe increase it gradually.  Did you ever go back and try a lower dose?

As for applying the oil individually, how much did you dilute it?

 

I refuse to dose my tank directly after what happened. Oregano oil is pretty soluble in water, if you shake it with water first. The oil burned plants where it touched, creating holes in my plants. If I were to treat with oil again, it would be in a hospital tank. I don’t see as how you can dose in a high enough levels to help the shrimp without having negative results.

when treating directly, I forget. I believe it was something like 1 drop of oil per 40 drops of water..... 

3 minutes ago, beanbag said:

dang it, just realized that my H2O2 has stabilizers in it.  Wasn't listed as an ingredient, but called itself "Hydrogen peroxide (stabilized)"

Ooooooo, yeah, I wouldn’t use that.

Edit: one drop of oregano oil per 90 drops of RO water.

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8 hours ago, beanbag said:

 

dang it, just realized that my H2O2 has stabilizers

 

Yeah, don't use it.

Definitely stick to one drop of oil to 90 drops water for dilution. Since you have the shrimp separated, you could try treating externally. Then move to back to oil soaked foods, if the shrimp improves.

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On 4/19/2020 at 4:27 PM, jayc said:

3) Isolate, asap. We can't confirm this is bacteria. Have you got a pic at least? A new hospital tank with clean water (parameters matched), might help out a sick shrimp. This "tank" doesn't have to be a purpose built aquarium. I have used plastic buckets with an air stone for purposes like this before. Temporary and much cheaper. IF this is indeed a bacterial thing, Oregano oil will help the sooner it is used, especially if we can still get the shrimp to eat. But definitely treat the shrimp separately in a hospital tank.

So does this shrimp look like it has a bacterial infection?  Somewhere I had read that one of the symptoms is that the antennae get broken off, but they still seem fine here.  In terms of appearance, it looks just like a regular shrimp except for the pinkness.  The shell is still shiny.   It's not eating, so the oregano-soaked food can't help.  For now, I guess I will increase its water changes, partially just to flush out whatever stabilizers the H2O2 put in.

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Is there a source for Big L’s Pig and Poultry Dewormer in the States? I can’t find it from a dealer here. It’s the one thing I haven’t tried( besides antibiotics). I don’t think I can add antibiotics( I have fishmox) directly to my tank without nuking the good bacteria.

 

I’m  dealing with more than one infection. It seems to be freeing up again. It’s driving me insane. I hope you can get yours figured out, I’m about to give up.

Edited by Steensj2004
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Update on my situation:

That sick shrimp has been in quarantine for almost a week.  At first I did nothing but put a little oregano oil in the water.  I don't have the number right now, but it was about half the concentration of what a dose of API melafix would have been.  It is enough the give the water a minty smell.  The shrimp started to look like it was getting worse, so I switched over to fish antibiotic (doxycycline).  It has been getting the standard aquarium dose, and the condition of that guy seems to have "stabilized", although not really getting any better.  Still pink-colored and very inactive and doesn't really eat.  But at least now it seems to just stand around looking bored instead of ready to die.  It's had the doxycyline for 4 days now and nothing really happened, so I wonder if it is really a bacterial infection after all?  Since I read that it would make the antennae broken / crooked, but physically the guy looks fine, except pink.  Maybe time to switch to a different antibiotic?

In related news, I still have the problem of shrimp being inactive in my tank.  It seems the blue bolts and babies are all fine, but the Red Wine Panda shrimp take turns being inactive for a few days each.  The only thing I have been doing is occasional H2O2 treatment and less food than usual.  The last time I "did" anything to the tank was at the end of march with that Dr Tim's Waste away.  I know people say that what you do to a tank can have an effects that lasts weeks, but come on...

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2 hours ago, beanbag said:

Update on my situation:

That sick shrimp has been in quarantine for almost a week.  At first I did nothing but put a little oregano oil in the water.  I don't have the number right now, but it was about half the concentration of what a dose of API melafix would have been.  It is enough the give the water a minty smell.  The shrimp started to look like it was getting worse, so I switched over to fish antibiotic (doxycycline).  It has been getting the standard aquarium dose, and the condition of that guy seems to have "stabilized", although not really getting any better.  Still pink-colored and very inactive and doesn't really eat.  But at least now it seems to just stand around looking bored instead of ready to die.  It's had the doxycyline for 4 days now and nothing really happened, so I wonder if it is really a bacterial infection after all?  Since I read that it would make the antennae broken / crooked, but physically the guy looks fine, except pink.  Maybe time to switch to a different antibiotic?

In related news, I still have the problem of shrimp being inactive in my tank.  It seems the blue bolts and babies are all fine, but the Red Wine Panda shrimp take turns being inactive for a few days each.  The only thing I have been doing is occasional H2O2 treatment and less food than usual.  The last time I "did" anything to the tank was at the end of march with that Dr Tim's Waste away.  I know people say that what you do to a tank can have an effects that lasts weeks, but come on...

I tried Amoxicillin (FishMox) to no avail, just as a heads up. 

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