Unexplained deaths

[LCM94]

Hello

I have an issue for which I cannot the answer. I've had caridinas for a few years now, but recently built a new tank (116l) with lots of moss, tech soil (shrimp king from dennerle), roots, stones ... but unexplained deaths. Tank has been running since mid february and since then I have done weekly water changes (around 10%)

I have an external filter (Eheim classic 150) & also a sponge filter with air sent in the tank for oxygen.

My parameters are:

PH = 6.4

GH = 5

KH = 0-1

Nitrates = 0.0025

conductivity = 250us

I use RO water with remineralized salt to obtain required conductivity.

I also use CO2 from time to time but it did not stop shrimps from dying :(

Shrimps die one a daily basis, suddenly stopping & dying / or losing colors & dying.

I have 2 possible explanations so far:

my osmosis unit was bought in 2017 and since then I have  stored it for several months without changing any filter and reused it > could it be that it does not work as expected and releases poisoned water (metals, bacterias ...) ?

Roots: even though I washed them could they be responsible?

I have no clue on determining what could be the root cause ... 

What other test could I do to evaluate the water quality.

If you have an lead I would take? Thanks a lot!

[jayc]

Can we have a picture of the whole tank? That will help us visualise what we are dealing with. Close up pictures of the shrimp too please.

I have a few questions, again to help us understand your situation.

Where are you located? Country/city.

What sort of caridina shrimp do you have specifically?

What stones do you have?

What type of remineraliser are you using?

Bacteria can grow in an RO unit that has not been used for a while. Are there any visual anomalies on the shrimp that can indicate a bacterial infection? Any pictures of the shrimp?

 

[LCM94]

Hello Jayc,

Thanks for replying.

8 hours ago, jayc said:

Where are you located? Country/city. >>> Near Paris France (Fontenay-sous-Bois)

What sort of caridina shrimp do you have specifically? I have / add CRS & Taiwan bees

What stones do you have? Okho or Dragon some call

What type of remineraliser are you using? I use 'Bee Shrimp Mineral GH+' and I add Bacter AE for biofilm

Bacteria can grow in an RO unit that has not been used for a while. Are there any visual anomalies on the shrimp that can indicate a bacterial infection? Any pictures of the shrimp? The only thing I noticed is that most of the time their colors fade and after that they stop moving & just die. Or they die with their colors. I also notice not too many mold (or at least I don't see the molds because the tank is quite filled with wood & moss) . I did not see anything else.

I have attached several pictures. As you can see I still have several CRS & 2 Taiwan bees.

Yesterday I added Cattapa leaves & last week I added a in the filter carbon filter pad to filter whatever pollution their might be. No specific improvement still ... I will receive soon a new RO filter and will do a 50% water change to see.

What do you think of all this?

[beanbag]

What's ammonia and nitrite reading?

What's the difference in conductivity reading between water in the tank vs fresh water you mixed up?

Some people have had trouble with the shrimp king substrate.  How many total water changes have you done since setting up the tank?

When you add the leaves, they release tannins and lower the pH, so be careful.

Also, 50% water change suddenly is kind of harsh.

That's a nice looking tank, BTW.

[LCM94]

 

Thanks!

Nitrite = 0.025

RO water is 0.08 I try to obtain approx the same level +- 250ms with salt

Amonia I don't have a test for that > should I get one or should the nitrite levels be impacted if amonia is too high?

I have done at least once a week 20% water change but nothing there for a week.

I also used and still use for water changes Easy Life Easy Start & Filter Medium

Edited April 3, 2020 by LCM94
adding 2 complementary info

[beanbag]

nitrite should be zero - maybe there is something broken about the cycle

U should dose Seachem Prime to help protect the shrimp against nitrite.

Quote

RO water is 0.08 I try to obtain approx the same level +- 250ms with salt

I don't understand this part

[LCM94]

RO water is 0.08 right out of the RO unit before adding salt. 

I use JBL tests and for nitrite it matches <0. 025 so cannot do better ?

Edited April 3, 2020 by LCM94

[beanbag]

What are the units of 0.08?

But anyway, I want to know what is the conductivity of your water AFTER mixing with salt, vs what is actually in the tank

[LCM94]

It's in us/cm so meaning half in ppm. After remineralizing it's about 240us/cm or 170 ppm like in the tank

Edited April 3, 2020 by LCM94

[sdlTBfanUK]

I have been experiencing virtually identical with my tank which I set up with the dennerle shrimp king substrate (as beanbag says). I wouldn't think it would be down to the substrate, especially by a reputable company as dennerle? I wouldn't use it again though! I still have some shrimp left but have some fish coming next thursday, we will see how it all goes from there. All my parameters are/have been perfect for months so like you I am baffled, maybe it is something related to the substrate, I used a different one last time and had phenomenal success????

I wouldn't use the C02 though! Or the easy life easy start at this advanced stage!

Great photos of a lovely tank!  I will follow your progress with much interest.

Simon

[LCM94]

Yes this is getting me insane ? ...

thanks for the comments.

I never heard that this soil is causing issue but who knows? Is it like the Amazonia where it seems that you need to wait at least 2 months before parameters stabilize?

Anyway, I will receive soon my new RO unit, probably the old one I used was not containing all polluted materials, I don't know ... will do ammonia test also when I receive the kit. But I though high ammonia would cause high nitrite values.

Let's wait & see; I will let you know how this goes.

[sdlTBfanUK]

As far as I can remember the soil didn't need any 'prep'. The plants etc are doing well in it?

I used JBL previously which isn't specific to shrimp but made for aquascaping and would use that again! Don't think it is available in US? That did need some big water changes in the first few weeks so there was extra work but I did that in the bathroom (left it in bathroom during that period) in a bucket then set up the tank so wasn't actually that much hassle, as long as you don't keep kicking it when you go to the bathroom????

Simon

[LCM94]

I live in France :) and we do have every king of soil here; for ex:

https://www.skaii-and-shrimps.fr/15-sols-techniques-cantonensis-bee-taiwan-bee

They are thriving, moss has grown very much.

I cannot put anything related to aquarium in my bathroom, my wife would kille me ?

Edited April 3, 2020 by LCM94

[sdlTBfanUK]

I see that seller sells the JBL Pro scape, it is made in germany I think. Thats the one I will stick with in future! They certainly have a huge variety to choose from?

Simon

[LCM94]

23 hours ago, beanbag said:

maybe there is something broken about the cycle

For this part what should I do? Empty totally the water and restart cycle? And clear external filter? Should I remove the roots also: they potentially still have treatments left inside de wood?

I rechecked the Nitrite value and it's less that 0,01

Could it be either Nitrates &/or Ammonia issue ?

Thanks for your help

Edited April 4, 2020 by LCM94

[sdlTBfanUK]

I wouldn't do anything that drastic at this stage and get the Ammonia and nitrates tests, even if you start it off again you won't have the testers to know where the cycle has progressed to, or if it is working etc! 

I had a problem when I added stone to my tank, and the PH increased, I assume triggering a new cycle from less harmful ammonium to the more harmful ammonia? Has your PH increased at all since the tank was set up with the dragon stone, I think that increases PH? 

Simon

[LCM94]

ok thx, will wait indeed for the tests NO3 NH4 & copper.

Okho stone don't add anything in the tank. I have had them for years now.

Checck this interesting video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=9fbHSeHhyIg&feature=emb_logo

PH has always been stable around 6.3

[beanbag]

On 4/3/2020 at 3:47 AM, LCM94 said:

It's in us/cm so meaning half in ppm. After remineralizing it's about 240us/cm or 170 ppm like in the tank

You have something that can measure 0.05ppm?

Do not remineralize to match the tank - remineralize to get your intended GH value.  The tank's TDS should always be higher than your input water.

[beanbag]

14 hours ago, LCM94 said:

For this part what should I do? Empty totally the water and restart cycle? And clear external filter? Should I remove the roots also: they potentially still have treatments left inside de wood?

I rechecked the Nitrite value and it's less that 0,01

Could it be either Nitrates &/or Ammonia issue ?

Thanks for your help

The cycle is broken if you see ammonia or nitrite.  For example, it could happen if the pH drops too low and the nitrifying bacteria shut off.  You should get a total ammonia test kit to find out.  Also, you can test a sample of pure distilled water as a zero reference.  You can test your RO water too, but ammonia can get thru a RO membrane, FYI.  If you see ammonia, the short term solution is to dose Seachem Prime, or some other compound that is supposed to treat tap water.

I don't think you need a copper test kit.  First, copper won't get through a RO membrane.  Second, the liquid test kits are useless because they measure at a too high level.  If you want to check for copper, you should get one of those Hanna low range test kits that can measure in the ppb (billion).  But I doubt copper is the problem, and Seachem Prime can bind to it anyways.

Edited April 5, 2020 by beanbag

[LCM94]

9 hours ago, beanbag said:

You have something that can measure 0.05ppm? 

Sorry it's not 0.05 (or other values) its 0008 on the reader. See Pics attached. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by LCM94

[LCM94]

9 hours ago, beanbag said:

The cycle is broken if you see ammonia or nitrite.  For example, it could happen if the pH drops too low and the nitrifying bacteria shut off.  You should get a total ammonia test kit to find out.  Also, you can test a sample of pure distilled water as a zero reference.  You can test your RO water too, but ammonia can get thru a RO membrane, FYI.  If you see ammonia, the short term solution is to dose Seachem Prime, or some other compound that is supposed to treat tap water.

I don't think you need a copper test kit.  First, copper won't get through a RO membrane.  Second, the liquid test kits are useless because they measure at a too high level.  If you want to check for copper, you should get one of those Hanna low range test kits that can measure in the ppb (billion).  But I doubt copper is the problem, and Seachem Prime can bind to it anyways.

Thanks! 

Checked yesterday again nitrite and there are less 0.01 on the jbl drop tester. I also bought the copper test to be sure that the roots are safe. Probably not the right test? 

I will test ammonia & nitrate when I get the tests. 

PS: Is Sachem better than any other water treatment? I am used to easy life products because they seems to be rhe most natural ones. They have a tap water product as well. 

https://www.easylife.eu/products/freshwater/water-conditioner/aquamaker

They also make this one. Don't know if you know this brand? 

https://www.easylife.eu/products/marine/water-conditioner/easy-life-filter-medium/easy-life-filter-medium-dosage

Edited April 5, 2020 by LCM94

[beanbag]

The aquamaker sounds like the right thing to use.

4ppm sounds about right for a RO unit, depending on your input water TDS.  It should cut it down about 95% or more.  Else, time to replace the membrane.

I still don't know what "roots" are???  Maybe they came with a non-copper pesticide.

[sdlTBfanUK]

I think they mean what we call driftwood as roots? Usually those fancy mini trees people make in a tank are made from root wood rather than branch wood! I can see the wood in the photos and it looks like they may have been roots of a tree originally!

Simon

[LCM94]

it's actually grape wine wood, sorry for the confusion ...

https://www.truffaut.com/racine-decorativre-pour-aquarium-pied-vigne-m-542110.html 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by LCM94

[jayc]

Water parameters look to be okay from the discussions above.

Have you got the ammonia test kit yet?

There is a possibility that it might have been ammonia causing the deaths. If you detect nitrites, as you mentioned above, then ammonia would have been present in significant amounts to affect the shrimp. 

Continue water changes, regularly. Say 10% daily until you get that test kit. If your ammonia test kit detects ammonia, we will increase water changes. But stay at 10% daily for now.