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Native caridina species breeding project!


Crabby
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Hey everyone,

I was recently (meaning today) given the opportunity to set up a breeding tank for some native inverts (or some harder to breed fish I guess, but I want to go for shrimp) in a fishroom I help out in. I've been trying to decide what native shrimp I want to try breeding, but then I remembered that it's not as simple as exotics. Can I get some input from the 'experts' (@Grubs, @NoGi, @Baccus, @fishmosy, @jayc of course, I know most of you aren't very active anymore, but I would appreciate your help if you see this message) on what native invert you guys think is easiest to breed (for a semi-noob who hasn't kept natives before). I can set it up as brackish I think, we have an archer fish tank there and are setting up a saltwater as well so should have access to those tools and materials.  

Cheers!

Edited by Crabby
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Hey mate, sorry I've not kept anything for some time. Been too busy farting around with crypto and forex 🤣

Back in the day, things may have changed, zebra were extremely difficult to breed. A couple of guys had limited success, maybe a generation or two only.

Typus was hit and miss, i think those with ponds had better luck.

Riffles would probably be the easiest from your list. Maybe one of the guys here that are more active could assist you.

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Oh sorry that's not what I meant, I was saying those were the species I am least likely to get a hold of! Pretty much most other natives I can do, just not really those 3 I think.

So I can do stuff like glass shrimp, DAS, Red nose, blackmore river, chameleons...

Edited by Crabby
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Great project!

Our native shrimp are so underestimated.

 

Well lets list out your options...

1) Darwin red nose - it's mostly clear but that red nose ! Fairly large compared to the next two.

2) Chameleon shrimp- similar to Caridina serratirostris and can change colours. Colour range from black to brown, reddish-orange, to light blues and greens. Also comes with racing stripes sometimes. The blues and Greens might be stress related, so less commonly seen.

3) Blackmore river shrimps - these are mostly clear with some rusty coloured spots. 

4) Darwin Algae Shrimp - aka DAS, similarly sized to the red nose. But by far the hardest to breed as the newly hatched shrimplets are tiny and needs planktons found only in brackish waters. 

5) Zebra - lovely little shrimp with it's black and white stripes. But seem be be another difficult to keep shrimp. Also very small at 2cm. They might be hard to source. You can always catch them in the wild but it means braving going into waters that crocs also inhabit. Zebra, from all accounts need very low TDS water. pH doesn't seem to matter so much. But TDS of 20-30 is key. However, it's easier said than done keeping TDS that low. An increase in TDS from 20-25 is a massive 20% change!  You most likely need to set up an auto water change in this zebra tank that replaces it with rain water constantly.

6) Typus - this is a large shrimp. Rarely seen in the trade now. These are probably the hardiest, if you can find any.

7) Riffles - I know you said unlikely to keep these. Just listing them for completeness.

Pair them up with any of our native snails and you will have a great biotope. Don't forget lots of leaf litter using our native tree leaves that have dried naturally.

 

Out of the 7 I'd start with Red nose and Chameleons. They can go in the same tank and they take the same water parameters. I wouldn't mix Blackmores, DAS or Chameleons in the same tank however, as you WILL loose track of which is which. 

 

 

Far out!

@NoGi !!

How the bloody hell are you mate ?!

Edited by jayc
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Thanks so much jayc! Do you know what water params red nose and chameleons would breed best in?

Also I've heard it's best to avoid gum leaves in tanks because of the chemicals they leech/produce - any others to steer clear of?

Edited by Crabby
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15 minutes ago, Crabby said:

Thanks so much jayc! Do you know what water params red nose and chameleons would breed best in?

Also I've heard it's best to avoid gum leaves in tanks because of the chemicals they leech/produce - any others to steer clear of?

Use Indian Almond Leaves

22 minutes ago, jayc said:

How the bloody hell are you mate ?!

Surviving lol Only a short visit to reply to my tag

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19 hours ago, NoGi said:

Use Indian Almond Leaves

 

Cheers NoGi, got a few around at all times, will do.

 

20 hours ago, Crabby said:

Do you know what water params red nose and chameleons would breed best in?

Just asking because the water at in the fish room comes from a single source (big water tank that dechlorinates and mineralises - it’s pretty much a necessity when working with a load of large native fish in big tanks) and I’m not sure if it’ll be too hard or anything. I do need to test the water when it comes out though. I’ll do that tomorrow I think.

Cheers

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Chameleons are indestructible provided you keep the temperature up. for instance i left a couple hundred in a sealed Styrofoam box full of rotting plants, peat moss and bog wood for 10 days by accident when moving house and still managed to get at least 50 survivors out of water that smelled and looked like sewage.

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I find Paratya are the easiest.    The variety you can buy online from livefish.com.au certainly reproduce easily.  I have Paratya sprinkled into ponds and various unheated and heated tanks for algae control so they cope with a wide variety of temps.  They do die off a bit in outdoor ponds in Melbourne in winter when water can be < 10C.

Chameleon shrimp will also certainly go ballistic under the right conditions but I also find they will stop breeding and the population will decline but persist with lower numbers.  I try to keep Chameleons in a couple of tanks at any one time to ensure I don't lose them.  Mine do OK on Mulberry leaves but I think they like a bit of protein.  The best numbers I had were in a tank with some catfish that died and the shrimp ate them and bred like crazy.

 

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I’m probably being naive here, but can’t you just go down to Parramatta river, get some water in a tub, and put the larvae in there?

Then replace 10-20% of the water with new salt water so you could potentially introduce/ replace the micro fauna that have been eaten?

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Thanks Grubs, I had been thinking paratya could be pretty easy, so if I end up failing with one of the species (DRN or chameleons) I'll try out the glass shrimp. Also will make sure I feed protein. As we have a barramundi in the fishroom he eats frozen pilchards - I'm sure I could just chuck in a chunk for them once every couple of weeks. What params do you keep yours in? (Paratya and chameleons, and DRN if you keep them as well pls).

Robbie, which species were you thinking about for that method? While I can't get water from Parramata river (as I'm in Melbourne, Vic) I do have a few local rivers that I can collect water from pretty easily. Paratya live in most of these as well, so it should be pretty safe water.

Edited by Crabby
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  • 1 month later...

Hey guys, just seen that aquagreen has finally got drn and chameleons back in stock, and was about to pounce when I realised... hey... I ordered fish food online like 2 weeks ago and it just arrived today... 

So obviously the either post services are totally swamped right now, or the place I ordered from was caught up in orders for ages.

So would it be too risky to order from aquagreen right now? Do I have to wait 6 months?? I’m sending a message to Dave, to get his opinion and any customer feedback he’s had on their express posting services, as well as an opinion on how well the shrimp could cope with longer shipping. I also noticed he’s put all fish as unavailable on the site, and I’m thinking this is probably because the fish can’t handle longer in a bag, whereas the shrimp can? Any opinions or ideas?

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1 hour ago, Crabby said:

So would it be too risky to order from aquagreen right now?

Yeah, a bit risky.

1 hour ago, Crabby said:

I’m sending a message to Dave

Good idea. Shrimp might last longer in a bag, but not much longer. A week tops with the mild weather we are having now.

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I've heard liverpool creek delivery is pretty good all the way down the coast, I've never had issues but I'm only in Brisbane so it's 2 days max.

they usually have a few species of shrimp

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Yeah just heard back from Dave, they've stopped shipping livestock for now. So yeah. Gonna have to wait until they start back up, unless I see a gumtree ad appear or something. Anyway cheers fellas.

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/30/2020 at 4:21 PM, Crabby said:

Hey guys, just seen that aquagreen has finally got drn and chameleons back in stock, and was about to pounce when I realised... hey... I ordered fish food online like 2 weeks ago and it just arrived today... 

So obviously the either post services are totally swamped right now, or the place I ordered from was caught up in orders for ages.

So would it be too risky to order from aquagreen right now? Do I have to wait 6 months?? I’m sending a message to Dave, to get his opinion and any customer feedback he’s had on their express posting services, as well as an opinion on how well the shrimp could cope with longer shipping. I also noticed he’s put all fish as unavailable on the site, and I’m thinking this is probably because the fish can’t handle longer in a bag, whereas the shrimp can? Any opinions or ideas?

If you want some special local NT Shrimps, email me aqua.green(at)bigpond.com there are other small shrimps in the top end no one has tried.  If you can get me into Kakadu there are some really nice shrimps on and at the base of the Arnhem Land Escarpment. Many would be good in the aquarium trade.

 

Kakaducarididae_revision.pdf

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  • 1 month later...

Okay, the native tank is finally happening. Not at the fishroom, but as part of my new rack. I wanna do DRN, Chameleons, and maybe DAE. I really want to use some pseudomugils though, but I can't decide which variety. I'm thinking my options are signifer, gertrudae, mellis and tenellus. Leaning towards signifer because they're easy to find, small, cheap, and the closest out of all to Vic. I would really really love to do mellis though, if someone can direct me to a source? Would mean so much to me to breed an endangered species that I adore. How many pseudomugils could I fit in the tank though? It's a 5 gal I think, dimensions are 40x23x25 (LxWxH). I was told by a signifer breeder I could fit 10 signifer into it. Tenellus would be less of course, as they are larger.

Plants are bacopa monnieri and vallisneria nana (locally collected), val triptera, glosso, and maybe a flowering plant like nyphoides spongiosa. 

Planning to use a natural rock/pebble substrate with some sand mixed in. Probably will use some rock hardscape, will collect those from the yarra, and have a piece of driftwood I plan to use already. Just wondering about those fish. And @Dave, when do you plan on shipping plants, shrimp and fish again? As I was probably gonna buy most of the stuff from you guys at AquaGreen. 

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1 hour ago, Crabby said:

I really want to use some pseudomugils though, but I can't decide which variety.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. They are all so nice. 

As you said, signifer is easier to find. Don't know of any store selling mellis.

Edited by jayc
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Yeah, mellis are extremely rare from what I've heard. Only seen them once on gumtree, but sold out by the time I enquired. Apparently some people have them from ANGFA meetings, and otherwise you can barely find them in the hobby. 

Any idea whether I could fit 10 of any in a 5 gal?

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3 hours ago, Crabby said:

Any idea whether I could fit 10 of any in a 5 gal?

Yeah, that would be about the max I would put into a tank that size. 

Edited by jayc
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      How is now the condition of pH?
    • sdlTBfanUK
      Summary from the old thread; I managed to destroy my wonderful Taiwan bee tank with a faulty heater that cooked them. I then set up the tank afresh May 2019 using shrimpking substrate, new plants and wood etc. The tank looked very drab from the start and several batches of new taiwan bee were added and died out instantly. Covid came along so I decided I would give up with the taiwan bee shrimp and get some fish instead about a year later (1 kilie and 12 mosquito rasbora). September 2020 I tried another batch of tawian bee but they fared no better and the tank was still very drab looking (and still is to this very day). I very much doubt it is the substrate but won't be using that again but have aquired a large bag of the old type of substrate I used before, but I really don't know what caused the problem, maybe there was some sort of bacterial infection or I accidently poisoned the shrimp, or there was something on the new plants/wood??? The parameters were always perfect and I have to just accept I will never know? At some later date I dumped some wild type red cherry culls into the tank as food for the killie but he didn't seem to eat them (they were clear/brown so maybe he didn't see them) and they seemed to settle into the tank and bred! Fast forward to a month ago and I decided that now the postal service is better than it had been early in the pandemic, I should maybe try some more taiwan bee as the cherry shrimp had been in there for a year or so and doing well, so I assume whatever the problem was had gone, although the tank is still not as healthy looking as the other tanks using the other substrate! I ordered 15 black shrimps 2 weeks ago and put those in the tank and they seemed to be surviving so earlier this week I order 20 red/blue shrimp and put those in the ttank yesterday. This morning I counted 18 shrimps (about half) so it looks as though it maybe going to work now, the tank is so densely planted that I would never expect to see ALL the live shrimp anyway! The killie fish died a few days ago so he isn't a threat anymore and I doubt the rasboras are either. I am now in the process of fishing out the wild type cherry shrimp as/when I see them! Here is the link to the full thread about the above but I decided to start a fresh thread from here on, https://skfaquatics.com/forum/forums/topic/14523-here-we-go-again/ I will keep this thread updated and get some photos at some stage, though the new shrimp are a bit small at the moment.  Simon
    • sdlTBfanUK
      I think I should start a new thread on this now as this is getting a bit long and it seems to be working now, and to keep it tidier and easy to find/follow! I will attach a link below once done! Simon https://skfaquatics.com/forum/forums/topic/15621-here-we-go-again-again/  
    • sdlTBfanUK
      Hopefully it will settle quite quickly now and it was just everything sorting itself out, and at least you caught it before it caused problems with the fish and shrimps. As you also say, it will take a bit of time for the neneficial bacteria to spread in the new sunstrate as well! The  packaging of the substrate should tell you if there is any routine you should carry out when first using it because of mineral build-up or ammonia, so if the packaging didn't say anything I think it is safe to assume it was not the substrate (Fluval stratum is volcanic soil), and other people may have just assumed it was the substrate without considering anything else if they had a similar episode to yours? Simon 
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