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pasha15

New member help with parameters

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pasha15

Hi all. I have had a 123l planted  fish aquarium for some time now with great success. I decided I also wanted a shrimp tank. I got a aquaone 40 55litre. I have blocked the filter inlets with foam to avoid sucked in shrimp. The tank is also planted using fluval stratum. I have a planted log in the back corner, java fern and various other plants, spider root and rock. I gained a amano shrimp with the planted log so purchased another 3 to go with it. I also bought some cherry shrimp as this was what I originally wanted. I lost a few cherries initially, having spoken to my local fish shop i.think this was due to the tank being too new (waited 4 weeks before adding shrimps). I have not lost any for about 2 weeks now. I change 10% of the water every week. I live in a hard water area. I have tested the tap water Gh over 14 but below 28 kh 10 ph10, ( basic test strips have a better test kit ordered). Tested the water today and Gh 14 ish PH 6.4 and KH 0. (Which is roughly the same as my fish tank) is the PH and KH too low for the shrimp? If so how do I increase it safely with out raising the GH. I treat the tap water with seachem prime and let it sit for a while before water change . Sorry for the long thread.

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jayc

The GH is way too high!

pH and KH is fine for shrimps.

 

Did you use a liquid test kit? 14 drops for GH to turn colour?

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pasha15

It was a test strip and the highest reads for GH are 14 and 28, the colouration was between the 2. I have a better test kit on order.

I live in a very hard water area, west sussex uk.

I have been reading that the KH should be higher for molting etc. 

What is the best way of lowering the GH?

I struggle to understand the chemical side of this wonderful hobbies.

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sdlTBfanUK

Welcome fellow Sussex shrimp keeper!

Although cherry shrimps are really quite simple and easy to keep and quite adaptable, I am guessing you didn't acclimate to the tank water over several hours as that is a common newbie error. They should be drip acclimated for at least a couple of hours? I always expect though to lose about 20% of new shrimp in the  first couple of weeks anyway?

The substrate will be lowering the KH and PH and that will continue until the soil  has exhausted its buffering ability. My last tank took about 3 months of 20% tap water changes per week,  but you need not worry too much about that as these shrimps are fairly hardy and adaptable. Once the buffering stops the PH and KH will gradually rise but it will be a drawn out process so the shrimp should be fine with that! The parameters that the soil helps get too are really aimed at Taiwan bee shrimps but I have 2 tanks with soil and cherry shrimps and haven't had any problems ever.

Do you know what your TDS is, do you have a meter for that? 

Your GH could be as you state as we recently had someone on here from up north with those readings. How long have the shrimp been in the tank? How many did you buy, how many died and how soon?

By far the easiest route to go is to get RO water and GH/KH+? If the shrimps are majority doing well then just carry on as is but use the RO water re-mineralised for water changes in the future and that will very slowly bring the parameters into ideal. This will take out everything from the water and by adding the GH/KH+ you know the water is perfectly balanced for the shrimps needs chemically. I use a jug water filter www.zerowater.co.uk and the filter does about 100L before it needs changing (that is only a rough idea as it will depend on your local water supply) and the GH/KH+ you can get widely or from www.pro-shrimp.co.uk (see below, either)! Be aware that I have used and failed many times with OTHER water filter jugs as they don't remove enough so don't go trying that route!!!!!!!!!!! Either zerowater jug or a full on RO water system, unless you buy the water from a fish store!

https://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/shrimp-king/688-shrimp-king-shrimp-mineral-ghkh-200g-4001615061345.html

https://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/salty-shrimp/99-salty-shrimp-shrimp-mineral-ghkh-200g-4260290710485.html

As a very rough guide, parameters for cherry shrimps around:

PH 6.5-7.5

GH 6 - 8

KH 1 - 4

TDS  150 - 250

Hope this helps but fire away any questions you may have?

Simon

 

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jayc

That is very hard water for shrimp.

But ain't no one better than Simon, your friendly Mod to help with advise. He even lives in the area.

 

KH is not what you need to be worried about for moulting. 

It is the GH (General Hardness) of the water that needs to be lower. GH is what influences the hardness of the shrimps shell and eggs.

High GH like you have will cause difficulties in moulting, as the shell is too hard. And shrimps will have a harder time fertilising the eggs when the egg's shell is too hard.

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pasha15

Thanks for the advice that helps a lot.
The shrimps have been in the tank for about 8 weeks. I bought 12 cherrys and 4 amano to start with, all the amano are still alive but I am down to only 4 cherry shrimp. I lost most of them in the first 4 weeks and have lost none in the last 2 weeks. No I didnt drip acclimatise them, this is something I have learnt since.
I dont have a TDS meter, again this is something I have learnt about recently. I have made a few mistakes but really want to get this right especially before getting any more shrimp.
I will look into the filter etc. My question would be if I use the filter and GH/KH+ I assume I would not need the seachem prime?
Again thank you

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sdlTBfanUK

Almost all of us have learnt the hard way with some aspects of this hobby!

With RO (or zerowater) you just add the GH/KH+ and that is it, you don't need the seachem prime for that tank.

With so few shrimps you could speed up the GH reduction process but I won't go into that here yet as you need to know where you are TDS wise really first.

It shows how tough and adaptable they can be if some are still surviving in water with a GH14? From JayC above though I guess they may not be able to moult when that is needed and die then?

Simon

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kms
On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 3:15 AM, pasha15 said:

Thanks for the advice that helps a lot.
The shrimps have been in the tank for about 8 weeks. I bought 12 cherrys and 4 amano to start with, all the amano are still alive but I am down to only 4 cherry shrimp. I lost most of them in the first 4 weeks and have lost none in the last 2 weeks. No I didnt drip acclimatise them, this is something I have learnt since.
I dont have a TDS meter, again this is something I have learnt about recently. I have made a few mistakes but really want to get this right especially before getting any more shrimp.
I will look into the filter etc. My question would be if I use the filter and GH/KH+ I assume I would not need the seachem prime?
Again thank you

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk
 

Amano shrimps are more of a hardly shrimp compare to red shrimps or CRS, but it's normal to lose shrimps, I've spent lots of money on equipment and shrimps, and i'm still learning, all I have are 1 amano shrimps and 4 red pinto galaxy and some Thailand micro crabs, who know how many shrimps I've lost, probably lost count.

Edited by kms
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pasha15

Ok so Tds meter arrived today reading 167, a little low but ok I think? Water filter from zero water and GH/KH+ on its way. Hopefully I am on the right path now. Thank you everyone for your help.208c77416596e31534b6f360e6891379.jpg

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sdlTBfanUK

I think you are on the best and easiest route as balancing GH14 but TDS 167 is way off shrimp requirements so going back to Zero and using the shrimp minerals GH/KH+ will get the water perfect in one go, instead of trying to adjust each separately!

Your next headache though will be to decide whether to go the fast or slow route? Going the fast route of completely changing the water will likely kill the remaining shrimps but is obviously easier as well as quick and you could probably just get new stock straight away! The slow route of just carrying on as you are with 10% water changes but now using the correctly mixed RO water and GH/KH+ will be very slow to get the GH down and the shrimps that you still have may not be able to moult properly and then die anyway! 

I would probably go the change 100% water for an instant result and TRY drip acclimating the shrimps to the new water over as many hours as you can, and keep your fingers crossed but expecting they won't make it? That has to be your choice though of course!

Tank looks great by the way.

Simon

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beanbag

Note: you can't get GH 14 with only TDS 167, so one or more of those measurements is wrong.

I would change the water slowly to try and save the remaining shrimps.

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sdlTBfanUK

I understand what Beanbags theory is, usually there is a correlation between the 2 figures but we have really hard tap water in the UK - they call us limeys for a reason so it isn't that unusual over here for the figures to not correlate in the expected way. I have seen it a few times whilst on here with UK people! Of coarse there is a possibility the readings were incorrect so it would be worth trying them again!

I actually don't have this problem myself as we have peat soil, hence we can grow rhodedendrons and other such plants that can't be grown outside in the ground, in this small area of the country. 

I DO understand where you are coming from beanbag though!

Simon

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pasha15

Ok so have taken readings again, 2 different tds meters used both giving same readings.

Tap water tds 282 GH 14 KH 15-20 PH 7.6
Tank water tds 185 GH 14 KH 3 PH 6.4

Water filter arrived today

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beanbag

umm, wait, what are the units of TDS? ppm or micro seimens?

What are the units of GH? dGH or ppm?

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pasha15

All ppm

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beanbag

Just FYI:

When people refer to TDS, they usually use ppm.

When people refer to GH and KH, they use "degrees", where one degree is approx 20 ppm (actual number is 18.something).

For Cherry shrimp, a typical recommendation is dGH 6-8, which means a minimum of 120 ppm in TDS from the GH alone.

So 14 ppm GH is really low and 14 degrees GH is really high.

Also 14 dGH would give you a minimum TDS of upper 200's

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sdlTBfanUK

Wow the soil is pretty good if it is reducing the KH by that much! That may help exhaust its buffering quicker?

All these weird figures will get slowly more inline once you start using the zerowater (RO) water and GH/KH+.Will take a long time if you do 10% per week though so I wouldn't go shopping for shrimp too soon? Do you still have the 4 red cherry shrimps alive?

As you have such hard water I recommend that for the first zerowater filter you maybe check the GH and KH around 50L, 75L, 100L just to make sure  it is doing everything it should. Usually you would just check the TDS as the manufacturers recommend but as your water has such different parameters I would check with the first filter, if all is OK at those points (GH0, KH0, TDS0) you won't need to do it in the future, but then just use the TDS meter. The filter will start going up fairly quickly when it is finished so I change mine at TDS 003 as it will go up really quickly at that point, though you should have  near 100L before it goes up normally! 

Simon

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pasha15

So quick update, everything has arrived I need for getting the water right. I also got a JBL proscan and the results are as follows 1st is the tap water 2nd one is from the tank. The nitrates and nitrites are a little hi as they were due a water change yesterday. Does this make more sense than the other results? Going to go down the 100% change route. I can only see 3 cherries this evening but cant see any Bodies so 1 may be hiding.5b032bc84cde983875c888faebecb7e5.jpgd2224d2f4ebb30efd16fb0b0f8072976.jpg

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sdlTBfanUK

Sorry for slow reply, been re reading the thread....................

I would do the 100% water change with zerowater and GH/KH+. It will take a lot of time to filter the water and you will need a few buckets! Once you have filtered the 50L for the tank it would be a good idea to do the TDS/GH/KH /PH tests on pure zerowater as they should all still be 000?

If you fish out the shrimps, Amano and cherry and put them into a bowl/bucket you can take some of the newly mineralised water and try drip acclimating them but best assume they won't make it long term (the new water put into the tank will change in parameters due to the soil buffering to start with) so you will be pleased if they do! I would run the new setup for a week or two to settle water parameters before getting new stock! You may have better luck acclimating the shrimp you already have to the 123L fish tank water and putting them in that tank if that is possible.

I am not sure how this water change may affect the 'cycle' especially as you currently have nitrate and nitrite readings, so I would regularly test that once the zerowater is in the tank for a couple of weeks as well? The zerowater filter should remove the chlorine as well! The GH/KH+ is already balanced sp you only need to use the TDS meter when mixing the new water - I would aim for 180 but it doesn't need to be exact so some lee way either side is fine!

Then from there go back to the 10% water change each week. If you need to TOP UP between water changes just use pure zerowater without any GH/KH+. 

Looks like your going to have a busy weekend???

Hope I haven't forgotten anything................

Simon

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