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ricksza

Sudden Death

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ricksza

I took a look at my shrimp tank this afternoon, all my Blue Dream shrimp are dead or dying. This is a 10 gallon divided tank sharing water. No dead shrimp on the red side at all. Water parameters are: pH 7.6 ppm, HI pH 7.4 ppm, Ammonia 0 ppm, Nitrite 0 ppm, Nitrate 10 ppm, GH 8 dKHKH 3 dKHTDS red side 204 – blue side 197, 76°. I checked the water before I did the 25% water change 3 days ago and the only difference is the TDS is 9 points lower now.  I have live seed shrimp on both sides. Both sides are feed the same food at the same time. Both side received 2.5ml of Flourish each after the water change. I've had the shrimp in the tank for 29 weeks. I never had a large breeding explosion like some report, but I constantly see shrimpets.

 

Anyone have any ideas what caused this?

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jayc
1 hour ago, ricksza said:

Anyone have any ideas what caused this?

Wow, that's a difficult one. Especially when one side of the tank is fine. 

And seed shrimp are usually the first to go if it's water related.

Can you post a picture of the tank?

Not one survivor? All dead?

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ricksza

Here it is:

 

Shrimp Tank.jpeg

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Blue Ridge

Saw this on planted tank forums. Still stumped. Makes no sense at all why 'pods wouldn't die -or the other side be fine- if it's any toxicity issue -which is almost always the case. All I can say is I'm sorry this has happened and when my colony is back up I'll hook you up if you can wait a couple of months. No logical reason that an aquarium sharing water would have one color of the same species perish that I can even think of.

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ricksza
23 minutes ago, Blue Ridge said:

Saw this on planted tank forums. Still stumped. Makes no sense at all why 'pods wouldn't die -or the other side be fine- if it's any toxicity issue -which is almost always the case. All I can say is I'm sorry this has happened and when my colony is back up I'll hook you up if you can wait a couple of months. No logical reason that an aquarium sharing water would have one color of the same species perish that I can even think of.

Thank you for your offer.

 

I did have a similar issue early in my shrimp tank, but I think it was because I did a water change like I do my fish tank. I think I shocked them, but that was 6 months ago.

That's why I did the water test right away and every parameter looks normal. Everyone says that seed shrimp are a sign of a healthy tank. I could never understand why I never got the breeding explosion on either side that everyone talks about, but I thought that maybe it was because of the size of the tank. That's one reason that I'm sitting right next to a pair of 20 gallon tanks ready to set up. I have a filter seeding on the red side now, but I don't know if I should trust it. I can see shrimpets on the red side still and everyone is eating fine, no red deaths.

Edited by ricksza
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jayc

And your Blue Dreams have been in that tank for 29 weeks prior to this? 

Any survivors?

What is on the bottom of both tanks?

How are the two sides connected?

Can you describe your tank maintenance regime ?  What do you do at each water change?

 

 

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sdlTBfanUK

Very sorry to hear this.

I had a similar (just 1 tank though, not split) and the heater cooked the shrimps? I can see a heater on the right half but you say 76 so I am guessing it isn't that?

You are right that the parameters look good.

Maybe, if you have a new 20 gallon tank anyway and they were going in to that you should just set that up afresh and don't use ANYTHING from the old tank blue side.

What about food? Have you used any NON ORGANIC fresh vegetables or leaves that may have pollution on them, ie collected at the roadside?

Do you drip the new water into the tank?

Simon

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ricksza
6 hours ago, jayc said:

And your Blue Dreams have been in that tank for 29 weeks prior to this? 

Any survivors?

What is on the bottom of both tanks?

How are the two sides connected?

Can you describe your tank maintenance regime ?  What do you do at each water change?

 

 

Same original colony no additions on either side.

No survivors that I can see, no deaths yet in red side.

Pool filter sand, piece of cuttlebone, Marimo Ball, Java Moss & Feeding Dish. All has been there since day one. 40ppi foam block under glass divider allows water exchange, no forced flow. Same on both sides.

Every week, I do a water parameter test on alternating side, I siphon 2.5 gallons of water from same side, do any necessary cleaning on both sides, refill to same side through 3/16 inch diameter airline tubing, 1/2 scoop of Bacter AE  premixed in tank water & add 2.5ml of Flourish to each side from same dropper. Very first time I did a water change (28 weeks age) , I poured the water in and had 3/4 die off.  

Edited by ricksza
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ricksza
25 minutes ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

Very sorry to hear this.

I had a similar (just 1 tank though, not split) and the heater cooked the shrimps? I can see a heater on the right half but you say 76 so I am guessing it isn't that?

You are right that the parameters look good.

Maybe, if you have a new 20 gallon tank anyway and they were going in to that you should just set that up afresh and don't use ANYTHING from the old tank blue side.

What about food? Have you used any NON ORGANIC fresh vegetables or leaves that may have pollution on them, ie collected at the roadside?

Do you drip the new water into the tank?

Simon

I took the heater out anyway and inspected it, no cracks, no moisture in it.

My thought exactly about the seeded filter, why take a chance. Actually I have two new 20 gallon tanks, one for the reds and one for the blues.

Only food they received (past few weeks, both sides are fed the same, at the same time) was Bacter AE, Aquatic Arts Sinking Pellets, Hikari Crab Cuisine & Azoo Max Breed

The water is slowly introduced into the tank through a 3/16" airline tube, takes close to an hour.

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sdlTBfanUK

Which side did you last do the water change on? If it was the blue side I guess that gets us a step closer maybe?

Any chance of copper poisoning? Do you need to use flourish with no plants?

Clutching at straws and we may never be able to get to the bottom of it unfortunately!

Simon

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ricksza
1 hour ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

Which side did you last do the water change on? If it was the blue side I guess that gets us a step closer maybe?

Any chance of copper poisoning? Do you need to use flourish with no plants?

Clutching at straws and we may never be able to get to the bottom of it unfortunately!

Simon

Yes, it was the blue side, but I did the water test  on the blue side also. Same procedure and equipment I've been using.

I just performed the Seachem  copper test - reads zero. I was recommended to dose Flourish for my floating Salvinia Cucullata.

Unknown is the worst. If I had a reason, I could take steps to prevent it from ever happening again. 

I will be doing my normal maintenance tomorrow on the red side, so I guess we'll see what happens.

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sdlTBfanUK

I assume even when you do one side at a time that you put everything, flourish bacter AE into both sides the same. I personally think 25% if that is a weekly water change is too much and if you are talking 25% of the combined then that means the one side you are doing gets  50% new water as the water that passes through the sponge at the base will be the old water - does that make any sense? My weekly water change is about 10% (wel actually 2 of 26 so less than that)

I have floating plants in my tank and don't use fertilixzers. I did the tank weekly maintenance this morning andhad to discard half of it as it grows like a weed......... maybe try not using the flourish and you may find you don't need it anyway?

I wouldn't do any maintenance on the blue side as a precaution and wouldn't use anything (cleaning sponge/net etc) in that side for now in case you cross contaminate and there isn't anything living in there anyway!

It is almost certainly something to do with the water change if it was that side. You did remember to dechlorinate I am assuming, a silly question I know so you don't need to answer that? You had clean hands? etc etc  

Simon 

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ricksza
59 minutes ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

I assume even when you do one side at a time that you put everything, flourish bacter AE into both sides the same. I personally think 25% if that is a weekly water change is too much and if you are talking 25% of the combined then that means the one side you are doing gets  50% new water as the water that passes through the sponge at the base will be the old water - does that make any sense? My weekly water change is about 10% (wel actually 2 of 26 so less than that)

I have floating plants in my tank and don't use fertilixzers. I did the tank weekly maintenance this morning andhad to discard half of it as it grows like a weed......... maybe try not using the flourish and you may find you don't need it anyway?

I wouldn't do any maintenance on the blue side as a precaution and wouldn't use anything (cleaning sponge/net etc) in that side for now in case you cross contaminate and there isn't anything living in there anyway!

It is almost certainly something to do with the water change if it was that side. You did remember to dechlorinate I am assuming, a silly question I know so you don't need to answer that? You had clean hands? etc etc  

Simon 

You are correct, both the Flourish & Bacter AE are evenly distributed to both sides

The water easily flows from one side to the other. When I first filled the tank, there was about 1 second lag to equalize the level between sides. The reason I started (since the end of May) doing 25% weekly was my Nitrates were constantly in the 20-40ppm range. It's down to around 10ppm since I put the Salvinia Cucullata in,. Recently it's been turning brown, so I was advised a couple of weeks ago by the seller to dose it with Flourish.

Basically, I'm going to ignore the blue side except I will still add  the occasional Bacter AE just on the off chance there are new born in there alive, nothing to lose. If nothing shows up, I'll decontaminate everything in the blue side and start the new tank

Even though I changed 2.5 gallon, I add 1ml API Water Conditioner (which is a 5 gallon dose) to the new water bucket when it's at the correct temperature (again, normal procedure). My hands are washed before and after I touch the tanks and well rinsed. My other tank is on another floor in my house, so I have tank specific equipment to eliminate cross contamination. 

 

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sdlTBfanUK

That sounds like a good plan and is what I would do, concentrate on setting up the new tank and start a fresh for the blues, hopefully, as you say, you may see some babies, that would be nice in one way but not in another............ hopefully you will be ok with the red side!

I still think that the water drawn into the side you aren't working on and putting the fresh water into will be drawn from the old water first as that is at the bottom and the fresh water is on the top so the not being worked on side will be more steady and slower mixed with the new? I would slower drip the new water (tie/bend the piping) into the tank, or maybe always now put the water in the empty old blue side until the new tanks are up and running. I could be completely wrong of course but I understand how the water fills both sides when you are filling the tank and is drawn through the sponge, but when they are both at the same level (most of the time) I don't then understand what draws the water from one side to the other??? On specially built split tanks the water is filtered from one tank into the other and thereby the water would be drawn through as one side the water level drops? 

If you only started using the flourish a few weeks ago I would consider not using that or using less, at the very least be cautious, as I say I have never used any fertilizers, though I do use soil substrate not sand so that probably helps!

You may never work out what happened but I know it will be more straight forward and easier when you have separated larger tanks! 

Simon

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ricksza
2 hours ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

That sounds like a good plan and is what I would do, concentrate on setting up the new tank and start a fresh for the blues, hopefully, as you say, you may see some babies, that would be nice in one way but not in another............ hopefully you will be ok with the red side!

I still think that the water drawn into the side you aren't working on and putting the fresh water into will be drawn from the old water first as that is at the bottom and the fresh water is on the top so the not being worked on side will be more steady and slower mixed with the new? I would slower drip the new water (tie/bend the piping) into the tank, or maybe always now put the water in the empty old blue side until the new tanks are up and running. I could be completely wrong of course but I understand how the water fills both sides when you are filling the tank and is drawn through the sponge, but when they are both at the same level (most of the time) I don't then understand what draws the water from one side to the other??? On specially built split tanks the water is filtered from one tank into the other and thereby the water would be drawn through as one side the water level drops? 

If you only started using the flourish a few weeks ago I would consider not using that or using less, at the very least be cautious, as I say I have never used any fertilizers, though I do use soil substrate not sand so that probably helps!

You may never work out what happened but I know it will be more straight forward and easier when you have separated larger tanks! 

Simon

My plan at this point is to set up both new tanks as totally new and not trusting anything from either side. If the red side does survive until the new tank is ready for them, they will be acclimated to the new tank and the old tank will be taken apart and sterilized. 

I never did want the water to be drawn through the foam as a filter. That would require regular cleaning, which would mean uprooting both colonies during maintenance causing too much stress. I basically just wanted 2 - 5 gallon tanks that for stability would act like one 10 gallon.

Looking back in the history, I did use Flourish at the start of the colony hoping that it would help the Marimo Balls & Java Moss grow better, which I believe it did.

I have about 3 weeks before I can put the new tanks in place on the rack. I do have an extra 10 gallon tank. I might start cycling (fishless, of course) that tank while it's on the floor now, with all the new filters, then just transfer the filters into the 20 gallon tanks when they're in place for a quicker cycle. This time when I start the 20 gallon tanks, I will have better lights & more plants to keep the Nitrates in check better. Live and learn.

Just a quick question, how large of a tank do you have? You said that you do about 10% per week, how long does it take to refill your tank? When I was doing 10%, I would drip it in for over an hour for 1 gallon. Then I started increasing the amount and the speed and it never seemed to bother the shrimp as long as the water temperature was matched.

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jayc
13 hours ago, ricksza said:

Pool filter sand, piece of cuttlebone, Marimo Ball, Java Moss & Feeding Dish. All has been there since day one.

I also see 2-3 Cholla wood in there. Has that been in the tank since day 1 as well?

 

11 hours ago, ricksza said:

I was recommended to dose Flourish for my floating Salvinia Cucullata.

8 hours ago, ricksza said:

 Recently it's been turning brown, so I was advised a couple of weeks ago by the seller to dose it with Flourish.

Okay, if there was any reason for shrimp to die it would be an overdose of Gluteraldehyde , which is what flourish is. Read up on what Gluteraldehyde is - hint it's nasty stuff. I would stop using Flourish asap. The assumption that the Salvinia Cucullata is turning brown because it is lacking in CO2 is wrong. The Salvinia Cucullata is a floating plant, any CO2 it needs is taken right from the air, not from it's roots. All floating plants take CO2 from the air. It is much more likely that the plant is turning brown because it is lacking in Potassium. 

Your Blue Dreams would have been a lot more sensitive to Gluteraldehyde than the Reds. This will be the most likely reason. Even if I'm wrong, it won't hurt the remaining shrimps in the tank to stop Flourish dosing. 

The great thing about floating plants is that you can remove them easily. Take them out and add them into a bucket of water with some Potassium instead. Give them a week and see if the plant improves.

 

 

14 hours ago, ricksza said:

add 2.5ml of Flourish to each side from same dropper

2.5ml each side is 5ml to a 10gal (40L) tank, that is way too much as a maintenance dose. That is the dose you use to a new tank. A maintenance dose is "Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 US gallons)" - quote Seachem. So you have potentially given 5 times the dose in that last water change. Dumping the water into tank would have killed them instantly. 

5ml per 10 Gal in a new tank is okay only for fish, not shrimps.

 

Of the two things above, Cholla wood and Gluteraldehyde, the Gluteraldehyde is the most likely cause of mass deaths. It has happened before to other shrimp keepers. Gluteraldehyde would also be hampering the breeding process of your shrimps. Let's stop the Flourish and see if it makes a change to your shrimp's breeding. Perform a water change immediately without any added flourish to dilute what ever is in the tank now. And treat your Salvinia Cucullata separately as I said above. Put it in a separate bucket with flourish if you want. But if I know my plants, it's potassium that it wants. 

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ricksza
56 minutes ago, jayc said:

I also see 2-3 Cholla wood in there. Has that been in the tank since day 1 as well?

2.5ml each side is 5ml to a 10gal (40L) tank, that is way too much as a maintenance dose. That is the dose you use to a new tank. A maintenance dose is "Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 US gallons)" - quote Seachem. 

Okay, if there was any reason for shrimp to die it would be an overdose of Gluteraldehyde , .....But if I know my plants, it's potassium that it wants. 

Yes, there are 2 Cholla wood in there also from day one on both sides.

I just checked Seachem's Flourish web page. Under Directions, for a 10 gallon, it says 0.8 mL once or twice a week. I think you were looking at  Flourish Excel . What do you recommend  I use as a potassium supplement?

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jayc
3 hours ago, ricksza said:

Seachem's Flourish

My apologies, yes I thought you meant Flourish Excel. 

5ml of Flourish in 10gal is still too much. So please cut down.

 

3 hours ago, ricksza said:

What do you recommend  I use as a potassium supplement?

for the  Salvinia Cucullata, yes. That will be the only major nutrient it is lacking in a freshwater tank.

But do that in a separate bucket, as Potassium will alter the pH and TDS of the tank.

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sdlTBfanUK
12 hours ago, ricksza said:

My plan at this point is to set up both new tanks as totally new and not trusting anything from either side. If the red side does survive until the new tank is ready for them, they will be acclimated to the new tank and the old tank will be taken apart and sterilized. 

I never did want the water to be drawn through the foam as a filter. That would require regular cleaning, which would mean uprooting both colonies during maintenance causing too much stress. I basically just wanted 2 - 5 gallon tanks that for stability would act like one 10 gallon.

Looking back in the history, I did use Flourish at the start of the colony hoping that it would help the Marimo Balls & Java Moss grow better, which I believe it did.

I have about 3 weeks before I can put the new tanks in place on the rack. I do have an extra 10 gallon tank. I might start cycling (fishless, of course) that tank while it's on the floor now, with all the new filters, then just transfer the filters into the 20 gallon tanks when they're in place for a quicker cycle. This time when I start the 20 gallon tanks, I will have better lights & more plants to keep the Nitrates in check better. Live and learn.

Just a quick question, how large of a tank do you have? You said that you do about 10% per week, how long does it take to refill your tank? When I was doing 10%, I would drip it in for over an hour for 1 gallon. Then I started increasing the amount and the speed and it never seemed to bother the shrimp as long as the water temperature was matched.

JayC has this better covered than I, but generally most think that no fertilizers with shrimp is best as shrimps are very sensitive. I know that sand/gravel has nothing in it for plants so I understand the wish to use them though! As you only have 1 moss ball and a bit of moss plus a few floating plants then there may have been a build up over time if there was too much for the plants to use!

I have a 35L tank with about 26L water in it. I do 2L water change and maintenance once a week and the 2L is dripped in over 4-5 hours which is easy as you just set it up and let it drip away all day! Shrimp don't have much of a bioload and are very sensitive so it is best to do only a small change in quantity but slowly add the new water. I have 2 fish tanks (similar size to other tank) in addition which have cherry shrimp and I use the same dripper method, mainly because I have it so may as well use it and as I say it is easy!

Simon

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ricksza
3 hours ago, jayc said:

My apologies, yes I thought you meant Flourish Excel. 

5ml of Flourish in 10gal is still too much. So please cut down.

 

for the  Salvinia Cucullata, yes. That will be the only major nutrient it is lacking in a freshwater tank.

But do that in a separate bucket, as Potassium will alter the pH and TDS of the tank.

I may be dense/inexperienced, but I don't understand. Do you treat with Potassium on a regular basis or as needed by plant appearance? Do you take the plants out, put them in the Potassium treated bucket then back into the tank? Is there a specific product brand that you could recommend?

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ricksza
20 minutes ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

...... there may have been a build up over time if there was too much for the plants to use!

I have a 35L tank with about 26L water in it. I do 2L water change and maintenance once a week and the 2L is dripped in over 4-5 hours ......

Simon

Yes, it's totally possible that there was a buildup, but seeing the Salvinia Cucullata, I thought that's what it needed. With JayC's help, I've been educated. I have been using the wrong product.

So, it seems you have about the same size tank as I. I actually did my water change this way when I was doing 10%. I purchased an IV setup which allowed me to easily adjust the drip speed. After a balancing accident which involved several gallons of water, I started changing quicker. With my new rack setup, it will be a lot easier to accomplish this.

Second day and the reds still have no deaths.

Thank you for your help and support, Rick

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sdlTBfanUK

As for help, it is our pleasure and apart from my rambling JayC probably was more help! Fingers crossed the reds carry on doing well.

I would go that proposed route of just trying to keep the reds alive in the old setup and concentrate on the new tanks setting up. I think it will be so much easier once you have the 2 separate larger tanks and you can look forward to buying more shrimps, though that is a way off at this stage.

Simon

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jayc
15 hours ago, ricksza said:

Do you treat with Potassium on a regular basis or as needed by plant appearance? Do you take the plants out, put them in the Potassium treated bucket then back into the tank? Is there a specific product brand that you could recommend?

Adding potassium into the tank will raise TDS and KH and pH, so while you can add a very small amount into the tank without a drastic change to the parameters, it still wont be enough for the plant. So I would take the plant out and put it in a bucket treated with Potassium, then back into the tank. 

Go down to your local gardening centre or a hardware store that sells fertilisers. Look for something like this ... soluble Sulphate of Potash.

b654689f-e8c8-4620-b79e-cb057ee6794f.jpg

It doesn't have to be the same brand. 

There should be directions on the back of the pack for dosage - use half dosage.

Leave the plant in the bucket for a couple of hours each day and then move it back into the tank. A week of that should start showing some improvements. Then you can stop after that, until it starts browning again.

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ricksza
1 hour ago, jayc said:

Adding potassium into the tank will raise TDS and KH and pH, so while you can add a very small amount into the tank without a drastic change to the parameters, it still wont be enough for the plant. So I would take the plant out and put it in a bucket treated with Potassium, then back into the tank. 

Go down to your local gardening centre or a hardware store that sells fertilisers. Look for something like this ... soluble Sulphate of Potash.

It doesn't have to be the same brand. 

There should be directions on the back of the pack for dosage - use half dosage.

Leave the plant in the bucket for a couple of hours each day and then move it back into the tank. A week of that should start showing some improvements. Then you can stop after that, until it starts browning again.

Great information, Thank you

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ricksza
On 9/6/2019 at 7:47 PM, jayc said:

Adding potassium ....

It seems Sulphate of Potash is not readily available locally without extra additives. I can order it from Amazon, but it appears I would need an accurate scale to measure it. Would Flourish Potassium be sufficient? I would still use the bucket - soaking method. The directions from Seachem say "This dose raises potassium by 2 mg/L".  Is the baseline important? How can I check where my baseline is? If so, what level should I aim for? From what I read, it seems that you really can't overdose Potassium, so how much do you recommend I add to 1 gallon/liter? I don't want to waste it either.

 

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      DAS are very robust and I've kept them in a tank with Melbourne tap water and in rainwater with  DIY hardness booster.  You'll find them in Northern Australia in both the fresh and brackish sections of rivers so they have really wide tolerances.  My tanks range from 24C to 29C If you get some keep the covers on for the first 2 weeks as they can be jumpy if your water parameters are a long way from what they were housed in. After a couple of weeks they settle down and rarely jump.  I know some people with open tanks put gladwrap over the top for the first couple of weeks only. I'll also suggest that no-way will they interbreed with your Tangerine Tigers -  they are very different shrimp and their bits wont fit together even if they were so inclined.   If money is tight then Paratya are about half the biomass but will breed up easily and also wont cross with the TT .... or do both.  You can keep all three together in the same tank.
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