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Crabclaw

Help with disease identification - Rocket Killie and Endler

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Crabclaw

Hey guys, I noticed a couple of days ago that one of my female rocket killies has some sort of disease or injury on her side, and I have no experience with fish diseases at all, so can I get some help with working out what it is and what to do about it? One of my female endlers also has a little white line on the end of her tail, and I just noticed this as well. Please help me with identifying the problems and fixing them.

Photos are here:

https://postimg.cc/gallery/odz029e0/

Cheers,

Crabclaw

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jayc

Not the best photo of the fish.

Have you checked your water parameters?

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Crabclaw

I had 2 measure w/ strips, gonna try and get a liquid kit soon. ph is fine (7.2 or so) ammonia nitrate and nitrite aren't coming up, kh and gh are a bit high though (kh is 80 ppm and gh 140 ppm give or take). Will try to get more photos, hard though cuz both are very active (and i haven't seen the rocket killie in a couple of days).

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jayc
21 minutes ago, Crabclaw said:

ph is fine (7.2 or so) ammonia nitrate and nitrite aren't coming up, kh and gh are a bit high though (kh is 80 ppm and gh 140 ppm give or take)

Those parameters are getting too high for a killi. Killis definitely prefer soft water and slightly acidic, pH under 7.0.

Irrespective of what disease it might have, it would be a good idea to start reducing pH, GH and KH slowly now. Where abouts in VIC are you? Melbourne's tap water is generally very good for softwater fish.

If we can't ID the disease, start with an all purpose cure, like malachite green. 

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Crabclaw

eek! I've been trying to reduce the hardness for a few weeks since i noticed it was high. I'm in melb, and my tap water is relatively soft, but it doesn't seem to make a difference to the hardness when i do water changes. I've been doing up to 40% weekly (on average maybe 30%) but have barely seen improvement... I'm using water that's already at about 23 degrees from tap, would it make a difference if I used just cold? (I've only measured cold tap, not heated as i didn't think it would be different). Otherwise if I could get RO from somewhere would that help?

Thanks!

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jayc
18 minutes ago, Crabclaw said:

I'm in melb, and my tap water is relatively soft, but it doesn't seem to make a difference to the hardness when i do water changes.

That means you have something else in the tank that is leeching carbonates - like a rock, or gravel or shell grit.

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Crabclaw

ahh shoot. gravel was washed about 20 times thru, and rocks were boiled. gravel was sold as aquarium safe gravel, but the rocks were from phillip island, along the beach... how could i just test 1 or 2 to see if that's why? (they're all the same type, but i have a few big ones that r heavy and a bunch of small ones that i can test with)

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jayc
3 hours ago, Crabclaw said:

gravel was sold as aquarium safe gravel, but the rocks were from phillip island, along the beach

Hah! LOL, how did I know.

If I was going to put a bet on one or the other, it would be the rocks from Phillip Island ... from the beach.

How to test? do the vinegar test.

Take out a bit of gravel, and a small stone. drop some vinegar on them to see if you get a reaction.

Alternate test is to put them in a cup of water. Test the water GH and KH before adding, then test again after a few hours to see if KH and GH have increased.

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Crabclaw

Tried this out tonight, started the glass experiment, and realised that my tap water is actually really soft. Kh is 0, gh is 30ppm, and ph is 6... why didn't I notice the difference earlier! Forgot the gravel, oops, I'll try that tomorrow morning. I put my whole supply of indian almond leaves (3) into the tank just to try to lower it a tinsy bit for the time being so I don't lose any more killies or shrimp (can't tell if I am actually losing shrimp as haven't seen bodies but my berried female has dissapeared completely sooooo). I've heard that vinegar isn't strong enough (youtube), but does it work for you? And in the case that it's the rocks (pls don't be gravel I don't want to redo my whole tank) are there any alternative rocks that don't increase gh/kh? JayC mentioned slate in steensj2004's forum on a similar rock issue, any other ones that work?

Thanks so much!

Edited by sdlTBfanUK
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sdlTBfanUK

The only rock I use now is Lava rock but you either like the look of it or not, it is different!

If your water is so soft (lucky you) you can just slowly and easily reduce all the parameters by doing small water changes with no (or very little) remineraliser, I would do a 10% water change with just the tap water (dechlorinated) for a few days and then see where you are? This would be the easiest way to do it but the new water should be added gradually by dripper or some other method? You don't want any sudden changes anyway!

If the berried shrimp is ready to have the babies they usually hide (naturally) so I wouldn't worry too much if you haven't seen any dead bodies!

I THINK it needs to be a certain type of vinegar (white if my memory is any good) but I tested my rocks the other suggested way, test the water before putting the rock into it,then put the rock in it, and then retest the water a week later, it is more likely to be the rock (as JayC stated) than the gravel but I guess you can do the same test with the gravel in a glass to be sure!

Simon

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Crabclaw

By lava rock you mean scoria right?

57 minutes ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

If your water is so soft (lucky you) you can just slowly and easily reduce all the parameters by doing small water changes with no (or very little) remineraliser, I would do a 10% water change with just the tap water (dechlorinated) for a few days and then see where you are? This would be the easiest way to do it but the new water should be added gradually by dripper or some other method? You don't want any sudden changes anyway!

Definitely will do that.

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sdlTBfanUK

I don't know what its official name is but here is a link (I know the supplier isn't of any interest to you) to what I got.

https://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/rocks/1381-tropica-lava-rock-5703249715104.html?search_query=lava&results=21

Its looks are very unique so you either like the look or not? Most of mine is covered with moss anyway? Or like this one but I would glue the plant to it rather than see an elastic band and it is soooo easy to glue plants to driftwood or rocks, it is just super glue though has to be non-toxic type;

https://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/aquarium-plants/2646-bucephalandra-wavy-green-on-lava-rock-tropica-5703249939012.html?search_query=lava&results=21

Simon

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Crabclaw

I did the tests tonight, and URGH!

Results were useless... I left gravel and the rocks in water for 3 days, and showed the tiniest change (if at all...). I also tried the vinegar test with white vinegar, but also had no reaction.

In the meantime I have lost the rocket killie that was originally sick, and another 1 or 2 😭. HELPPPPPPPPPPPPP!

Should I try with hyrdochloric (or muriatic or even citric) acid just to be sure? And would it have to be pure?

Upside-down strip comparison (srry)

IMG-5453.jpg

My interpretations: (note- the gravel was in much less water, water barely went over the gravel, but was in for less time (12 hours))

IMG-5452.jpg

The rocks and gravel

IMG-5450.jpg

And my problematic tank in all its bad blurry phone photo glory:

IMG-5451.jpg

Edited by Crabclaw
Added photos + fixed typo

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sdlTBfanUK

Have you tested the tank parameters as that is the most important one?

The tank looks good. Have you removed all the rock? If you have and the parameters (Ph) are going down with the water changes then you have probably sorted that part of the problem. If not I would try removing all the rock at this stage (you can always put it back later?) I left my rock a week in the test water before testing so you may be being too impatient, test again in another 4 days as it won't instantly rise it will take time to slowly increase the Parameters (Ph) I expect?

Some occupants were probably weak/sick by the stage you started 'messing' with the parameters etc, and changing the parameters may have just been too much or too late for some, if they were already weak/sick?

Simon

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Crabclaw

Will remove rocks today and do 20% water changes today and tomorrow, might get a couple of 10% changes done over the week as well. 

Also gonna try the test again for a week this time.

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Blue Ridge

I've avoided posting in this thread because I'm not sure what is available overseas and even the best photos are hard to diagnose by if not simple pathogens such as ich. If these were my fish, I would set up a QT and use Erythromycin and if you have it there API general cure. Obviously be mindful not to use carbon, etc in your filter. I am not a fan of tea tree oils, high temps or in most cases salt. 

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Crabclaw

Thx blue ridge for the advice, currently my problem is with the tds and hardness of the tank. The endler guppy no longer has a problem with her tail, and sadly the rocket killie has passed away. All of the other fish look fine, and I think the reason my killies have had it tough is due to the hardness being way too much for them. As there doesn’t seem to be a disease with them, my main focus is to get the hardness down before I lose my last 2 😢

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sdlTBfanUK

Although losing the last killie must have been upsetting, it does now give you a clean working space for getting the parameters sorted and then you can look forward to getting some replacement killie - I love killie, even more than Betta but it is a bit too involved for me so I have avoided it so far!

If your guppies are anything like mine (endlers), fin and tail marks will happen a lot and clear up almost as quickly, they are far too curious/nosey and go into every gap, under moss pads, squeeze behind the filters etc and so mine I have put down to them having just gone somewhere that they have got a small tear or caught on something - behind a filter or too close to a mesh pad etc?

Simon

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    • 3718
      I found one of my fire red shrimplets swimming erratically with his back arched up and i siphoned him out. Found some sort of white or clear hair or something growing out from the front of the shrimp. He is still able to wiggle his legs and antennas but just seem to have no balance too. Any ideas?   Sent from my ASUS_Z01KDA using Shrimp Keepers Forum mobile app     This is the clearest pic i could find. Its too tiny for my camera to get a clear shot Sent from my ASUS_Z01KDA using Shrimp Keepers Forum mobile app
    • jayc
      Are you using a plant substrate like ADA Amazonia? If you are not, than ammonia won't get high enough to stall a cycle.   Just don't use too much Prime. Only enough to treat the amount of tap water being added. That should minimise any impact that it might have to bind ammonia.
    • Razzy
      I'm considering water changing because I read that too high of an ammonia reading will also stall the cycle. I only have prime but I was reading conflicting results on if it stalls the cycle by not letting the bb feed. 🤔    
    • Cesar
      Yep, I see it too... Will look into this... Recently upgraded to the latest forum software... Always bugs to fix afterward... Thanks @Grubs for bringing this to my attention.
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