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Steensj2004

Shrimp Dying, No Idea why

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Steensj2004

Been keeping aquariums for years, including coral reef tanks(SPS heavy), tropical community tanks, and a few shrimp tanks. Recently set up a Spec v( 3 months ago). Started adding shrimp and they keep dying off. I have NO idea why, and it’s driving me nuts. I have two Amanos in with the Neos, and they are fine and going strong for some reason. Info below, tested last night again, so all levels are  current accurate):

 

Tank: Fluval Spec V. lightly planted

Substrate: Stratum( Dragon stone and Cholla wood for hardscape)

Light: Stock 

PH: 7.3-7.4

GH:7-8

KH:2-3

TDS:250

Ammonia: Big fat 0. I tested this 2x 

 

I shouldn’t be getting any heavy metal issues, and I’m using RO/DI water remineralized with Salty Shrimp Gh/Kh+

Tetras were in temporarily, and have been removed, they were present only to provide a bioload for a short time, relocates  to the 75 tropical tank.

 

 

 

 

D5B05B3C-3F59-48C9-9670-F8FBAA3A3B96.jpeg

Edited by Steensj2004
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sdlTBfanUK

Sorry to hear you are having problems and I can't see anything obviously wrong!

How long have the shrimps been in the tank and how many, how soon do they die etc?

I have neons in with my cherry shrimps and they are fine together so I don't think that would have been a problem.

Do you feed the shrimps at all, the tank looks very clean and tidy so it may be there isn't enough biofilm for them all to live on ad competing with the amano?

I understand these sort of things can be very frustrating, especially as they are cherry shrimps and therefore SUPPOSED to be really easy. I had the same with Betta fish keep dying, very frustrating when everyone tells you 'they are easy to keep'????

Hopefully someone may spot something and the more information you can give the better?

Simon

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Steensj2004
31 minutes ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

Sorry to hear you are having problems and I can't see anything obviously wrong!

How long have the shrimps been in the tank and how many, how soon do they die etc?

I have neons in with my cherry shrimps and they are fine together so I don't think that would have been a problem.

Do you feed the shrimps at all, the tank looks very clean and tidy so it may be there isn't enough biofilm for them all to live on ad competing with the amano?

I understand these sort of things can be very frustrating, especially as they are cherry shrimps and therefore SUPPOSED to be really easy. I had the same with Betta fish keep dying, very frustrating when everyone tells you 'they are easy to keep'????

Hopefully someone may spot something and the more information you can give the better?

Simon

Thank you for the response. 

 

That picture is from about a month ago, there are now Almond leaves, and a fair amount of buildup/film for them to scavenge. I do feed, but I suppose the larger Amanos could be outcompeting with the Neos. Only a small colony of velvet Blues(6). I’m clearly missing something, but I’m not sure what. Feeding is done with the following:

Shrimp King( mixture, I use several types and rotate them).

Bug Bites

 

I was planing an order of some new Neos( Orange or blue Rilis), but I’m going to have to hold off. I don’t want to drop in new creatures just to kill them. It is possible the store I bought from had iffy stock?

The insight is appreciated, I tend to underfeed from fear of contaminating in such a small tank. Maybe I’ll revisit my feeding habit. Thanks!!

Edited by Steensj2004
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sdlTBfanUK

That all sounds good so far, feeding very little (less than packaging recommends) and you have biofilm growing! I use the shrimp King mix as well.

I use Bacter AE that may be worth considering, and I personally would think about moving the amanos into a different tank so they aren't competing as the actual tank probably has only 4 gallons capacity when you allow for the built in separate filter section?

I think it is very wise to hold off getting more shrimps until it all seems to be running well, I am doing that with my new tank......... it takes a lot of patience???

Are you aware that mixing different colour neocaridina shrimps will likely produce wild type brown offspring down the line? Half mine in the  first fish tank are now brown/wild colour but that is a tank I have moved away from now! 

Simon

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beanbag

Fluval stratum is active substrate and tries to have pH less than 7 while absorbing KH.  It is not compatible with SS GH/KH which tries to have pH mid-upper 7's.

 

Also, your TDS is too high for RO + SS - there must be something else in the water

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Steensj2004
2 hours ago, beanbag said:

Fluval stratum is active substrate and tries to have pH less than 7 while absorbing KH.  It is not compatible with SS GH/KH which tries to have pH mid-upper 7's.

 

Also, your TDS is too high for RO + SS - there must be something else in the water

Ok. So I can’t use SS. What should I be using to remineralize? And the RO is at 2 TDS without SS added, what else could I be missing?! What else could be causing TDS to be so high?

Edited by Steensj2004
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jayc
1 hour ago, beanbag said:

Also, your TDS is too high for RO + SS - there must be something else in the water

Yep, the Dragon Stone is causing that.

But apart from 250 TDS, which shouldn't be that high that it would kill shrimps off, there might be other factors.

Tell us exactly how you added the new shrimp. What was your acclimation process?

The next time you buy any new shrimp or fish, always, ALWAYS test the water that they come in to find out how wildly different it might be to the water you are introducing them to. If the difference is big, acclimation needs to be more than just floating the bag in the tank to get temps up to equilibrium - it needs to have water dripped into the bag until parameters match your tank water closely. That can take anywhere from 1hour to 12hours depending on the difference in the water parameters.

 

Dragonstones are great for hard water fish, but not so much for Tetras and shrimps. I know you have probably invested in those stones, so someone telling you not to use them might not sound like the best advise. Just don't throw them away, you might be able to use them in the future (like when your tank matures, and pH starts falling too low). But for now, try taking them out, and we can see what the tank parameters fall back to.

 

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jayc
6 minutes ago, Steensj2004 said:

What else could be causing TDS to be so high?

The stone.

What else do you add to the tank? Apart from food and Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ ?

 

7 minutes ago, Steensj2004 said:

Ok. So I can’t use SS. What should I be using to remineralize?

It's too late now. Fluval Stratum is good for Bee shrimps like Crystal Reds, or Taiwan Bees, as it lowers the pH.

Salty shrimp GH/KH+ remineralises the RO water AND also increases pH - suitable for Cherry shrimps. 

As Beanbag pointed out you have the substrate competing with the Salty Shrimp GH/KH.

Since you have Cherry shrimps, stick with the SS GH/KH+, it will have to compete with the substrate until the Fluval buffering runs out.

 

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Steensj2004
47 minutes ago, jayc said:

Yep, the Dragon Stone is causing that.

But apart from 250 TDS, which shouldn't be that high that it would kill shrimps off, there might be other factors.

Tell us exactly how you added the new shrimp. What was your acclimation process?

The next time you buy any new shrimp or fish, always, ALWAYS test the water that they come in to find out how wildly different it might be to the water you are introducing them to. If the difference is big, acclimation needs to be more than just floating the bag in the tank to get temps up to equilibrium - it needs to have water dripped into the bag until parameters match your tank water closely. That can take anywhere from 1hour to 12hours depending on the difference in the water parameters.

 

Dragonstones are great for hard water fish, but not so much for Tetras and shrimps. I know you have probably invested in those stones, so someone telling you not to use them might not sound like the best advise. Just don't throw them away, you might be able to use them in the future (like when your tank matures, and pH starts falling too low). But for now, try taking them out, and we can see what the tank parameters fall back to.

 

Acclimation is always a drip for everything. Till water matches  tank, takes a while but I have great success this way. I mirror acclimation with my coral process. Usually takes 1-2 hours.

 

taking the dragon stone out will help? Guess the dragon stone is coming out! Thanks.

39 minutes ago, jayc said:

The stone.

What else do you add to the tank? Apart from food and Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ ?

 

It's too late now. Fluval Stratum is good for Bee shrimps like Crystal Reds, or Taiwan Bees, as it lowers the pH.

Salty shrimp GH/KH+ remineralises the RO water AND also increases pH - suitable for Cherry shrimps. 

As Beanbag pointed out you have the substrate competing with the Salty Shrimp GH/KH.

Since you have Cherry shrimps, stick with the SS GH/KH+, it will have to compete with the substrate until the Fluval buffering runs out.

 

So yank the stone, and stick with the current substrate and SS for Neocards? Could I swap to the remineralize that’s only for GH+?

 

The tank gets a small squirt of Easy Green fertilizer from Aquarium Co-Op once a week( maybe 1/2 -1mL).

Edited by Steensj2004
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beanbag

The dragon stone (ohko) is not incompatible with shrimp.  To test stone compatibility with shrimp: make sure it does not fizz when you put a strong acid on it.  Then let it soak in pure RO water for a day and check if the TDS rises.  IF it does, then your stone is leeching something, and you need to take it out.

If you use SS GH/KH and remineralize to GH 7 or 8, the TDS should be around 160 or so.

In your case, you can buy SS GH only and use that to make your water.  For now, you can also mix in some of the GH/KH so the change is not sudden.  Eventually, you will have a pH of mid 6's.  Maybe mix in a small amount of the GH/KH so you have kH near 1 and pH upper 6's.  Cherry and neo shrimp can live in these conditions, but might need some specific food supplementation.  I had neos living in these conditions for several months, (over) feeding with a variety of foods,  but when I reduced feeding to have them live off the tank biofilm, they died in a few weeks.

A big KH change is tough on neos, so even a slow acclimation might not be slow enough.

You can also swap out your substrate.  There are other brown, round pellet type substrates that are a hard-fired clay which you can't crush with your hands, and they won't change the water parameters either.

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sdlTBfanUK

As per JayC I don't think any of the listed 'problems' would cause shrimps to be dying off and the parameters look pretty good to me!

I'm not sure about the fertilizer though as some have ingredients that are dangerous to shrimps (ie copper etc). I have never used any fertilizers and plants grow really well and fast and lush, I am always having to give away to friends. Maybe try not dosing fertilizer and see if that makes any difference? I had a quick look and that fertilizer does say it is shrimp safe though??? If you are using that in other shrimp tanks and not having any problems I guess it can't be that?

I would carry on using the SS gh/kh+ you have as the parameters look ok to me, very similar to my Betta tank which has red cherry shrimps and soil substrate, though I use tap water plus gh/kh+. I had the same battle with the soil trying to reduce the PH and the gh/kh+ (and tap water) increasing the PH to start with, but it didn't take long for the soil to get exhausted of its buffering ability (as JayC states) and it never caused any problems to any fish/shrimp/plants etc while it was buffering or settling either.

It will be a shame to remove the lovely rock, I had some geodes that increased the PH in my taiwan bee tank so I had to remove that!  In my tank, it went from 5.5 to 7.5 though it was over a year or more and amazingly my taiwan bees were perfectly happy in PH7.5 as I guess they had slowly adapted as the PH slowly increased over a long period?

I had assumed you knew about acclimatising shrimps as you say you have a few shrimp tanks. As you say though, you may just have bought weak/unhealthy shrimp and that may be a part of the problem?

Hopefully there has been enough here to be of some help (and not too much to confuse)!

Simon

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jayc
8 hours ago, Steensj2004 said:

So yank the stone, and stick with the current substrate and SS for Neocards?

Yes. Do that.

 

8 hours ago, Steensj2004 said:

Could I swap to the remineralize that’s only for GH+?

That just creates water parameters with a lower pH, which doesn't suit Neos. So it's not really solving the problem.

 

8 hours ago, Steensj2004 said:

The tank gets a small squirt of Easy Green fertilizer from Aquarium Co-Op once a week( maybe 1/2 -1mL).

Fertilisers will add to the TDS count. Just so you know. 

 

8 hours ago, Steensj2004 said:

Till water matches  tank, takes a while but I have great success this way. I mirror acclimation with my coral process. Usually takes 1-2 hours.

That's a good practice. But did you test the water they came in? At least test TDS. That will tell you how well or poorly the shrimp were kept in. As an example my LFS keeps shrimp in water that is 400+ TDS. IF I bought those shrimp, they would die in my tanks where water is closer to their ideal parameters just from the huge sudden change. 1-2 hours wouldn't be enough. In this example, I would drip until 300 TDS, leave for 1 hour without further dripping, then drip again till 200 TDS, leave for 1 hour again, then drip till 150TDS and leave for another hour before introducing them into my tank. That's about 6 hours. So the new shrimp are in a container with an air stone and have long enough to acclimate to the new water. Needless to say, I don't buy shrimp from my LFS anymore. It might sound like paranoia, but when you buy shrimps that can cost a few hundred dollars, I want to make sure they survive! 🙂

Fish and coral can handle way faster acclimation, so don't compare them to shrimp.

Edited by jayc
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Steensj2004

Ok. A wealth of knowledge here! Thanks for all The help. 

The fertilizer has only been used the last 2-3 weeks( that’s new), so I don’t think that’s driving my TDS up, not like this anyway. I suppose I have to yank this rock, which isn’t a huge deal. 

 

Could someone suggest a good online source for rock that’s more compatible. Option are limited locally and I don’t want to go through the pain of ordering rock online 5 different times to get one that will pass the acid test. Thanks!

 

Lastly, I’ll likely be don’t with buying shrimp locally, looks like I’ll be trying an online order in the future as I’ve been mulling over that option.

Edited by Steensj2004
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sdlTBfanUK

Your last line is a subject that has been much discussed in this house over the years, is it better to get shrimp through the post or at a shop? Bear in mind I am UK based so anywhere in this country can send next day before 1pm as we don't have the huge expanses of land between places!

Actually I will do a separate thread on this as it is a different topic?

Simon

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jayc
4 hours ago, Steensj2004 said:

Could someone suggest a good online source for rock that’s more compatible

I only know of two types of rock that is guaranteed to not impact water parameters - slate and scoria volcanic rocks. Skip rocks as decorative pieces in the tank if your aim is to keep shrimp. 

Instead use lots of drift wood and leaves for a more natural look. Your shrimp will thank you for it.

 

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Steensj2004
47 minutes ago, jayc said:

I only know of two types of rock that is guaranteed to not impact water parameters - slate and scoria volcanic rocks. Skip rocks as decorative pieces in the tank if your aim is to keep shrimp. 

Instead use lots of drift wood and leaves for a more natural look. Your shrimp will thank you for it.

 

Right on. Could you shoot me a good source for the driftwood? Going to try and order it today. Pulling the dragon stone after work.I’ve  ordered almond leaves already, do you think getting driftwood locally is risky, or nah?

Edited by Steensj2004

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sdlTBfanUK

I don't think anyone knows where in the world you are as you haven't yet put that on your profile? I apologise if yo have said and I have missed it?

I use lots of driftwood/bogwood. I know your not UK based, but here I have bought driftwood with plants/moss already attached which looks great instantly though is a bit expensive? If you want to do this yourself there are some special glues out there which do make it really easy as well.

Simon

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Steensj2004
1 hour ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

I don't think anyone knows where in the world you are as you haven't yet put that on your profile? I apologise if yo have said and I have missed it?

I use lots of driftwood/bogwood. I know your not UK based, but here I have bought driftwood with plants/moss already attached which looks great instantly though is a bit expensive? If you want to do this yourself there are some special glues out there which do make it really easy as well.

Simon

Sorry, I assumed mentioning that I plan to order online made this answer fairly universal. I’m in the US. My bad.

I assume that I still need to be at least a bit careful with where I source driftwood. Boiling and removing tannins is obvious, but trying to avoid any further issues when I replace this rock. 

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Steensj2004

On the 4th rinse/boil of the new drift wood, water is looking much less brown. Rock coming out tonight.

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jayc
2 hours ago, Steensj2004 said:

On the 4th rinse/boil of the new drift wood,

That was quick. I see you have sourced some driftwood. Don't be too worried about removing the tannins. Its actually good for the shrimps. 

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sdlTBfanUK

I don't boil the driftwood when I put it in the tanks as JayC says, the tannins are good for the shrimps and it has never made the water so brown it becomes a problem, only slightly brown! I guess though that it may be a safe/good precaution to boil it anyway!

Some countries are very strict about importing shrimps, from what I hear on here I think it is illegal in Australia to import shrimps/crabs etc so that is why people needed to know where you are based. Being based in UK I don't really know much about buying shrimps in the US so hopefully someone will come through with this. There are lots of youtube videos made by Flip Aquatics (I think they are Ohio based???) which is based in the US though!  

Simon

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Steensj2004
15 hours ago, jayc said:

That was quick. I see you have sourced some driftwood. Don't be too worried about removing the tannins. Its actually good for the shrimps. 

 Did boil a few times, the water wasn’t completely clear when I stopped cleaning it. So they should be getting some tannins. I was able to remove all but one rock, I have one more piece to put in in its plAce today.

 

9 hours ago, sdlTBfanUK said:

I don't boil the driftwood when I put it in the tanks as JayC says, the tannins are good for the shrimps and it has never made the water so brown it becomes a problem, only slightly brown! I guess though that it may be a safe/good precaution to boil it anyway!

Some countries are very strict about importing shrimps, from what I hear on here I think it is illegal in Australia to import shrimps/crabs etc so that is why people needed to know where you are based. Being based in UK I don't really know much about buying shrimps in the US so hopefully someone will come through with this. There are lots of youtube videos made by Flip Aquatics (I think they are Ohio based???) which is based in the US though!  

Simon

Right on. I’m originally from Ohio, and I’ve been scoping out Flip’s videos and website for a few weeks now. Looks like I’ll be ordering from either Flip or AquaHuna after I get this tank works out completely.

 

TDS is already down slightly after removing the rock and doing a small water change. I also took the opportunity to remove some plants I wasn’t a fan of and replace them. Indian Almond Leaves came in today too, but my BacterAE is delayed. Thanks Amazon.🙄🙄

Edited by Steensj2004
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Steensj2004

Update for anyone interested.Rock was removed, Ph and TDS is down, over the last few days it’s crept down to around 190TDs after small water changes. Something that want happening with even larger changes before. PH seems to be down around 6.5. I hope it stays at that level, all inhabitants look to be doing well.

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Steensj2004

Turned into a ghost town in here, lol.

 

PH is down to 5.9-6.0 for some reason. All I’ve changed is the Rock was removed and a few small almond leaves added. I know those can bring the PH down a hair. Any idea what might be causing the issue?

I was planning on keeping Some Jade Neos, I don’t know that they would like 5.9-6.0 very well. Thoughts?

 

I’m struggling here and I don’t know wtf to do. I’d love is someone could help me out here.

Edited by Steensj2004
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jayc
10 hours ago, Steensj2004 said:

Turned into a ghost town in here, lol.

Yeah, there was an issue with SKFA forums or the servers its on for many hours.

That would have been why no one was around to respond.

 

10 hours ago, Steensj2004 said:

PH is down to 5.9-6.0 for some reason

That rock was buffering the pH. Now that it's gone, the water is returning to it's normal pH range. Well normal but for the substrate buffering it lower. You can try adding a small piece of the rock back in - that's one quick option.

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