Jump to content
Mapsyd

Hello and newbie shrimp keeper

Recommended Posts

Mapsyd

Thanks jayc....lol...yes...forgot about that coral...pH still 6.8 today and ammonia still at .025 ppm....so things are getting a move on I hope...

Thanks @Zoidburg....I think as others have mentioned to let the system mature and then see where parameters are and go from there. The funny thing is that another member @Zebra has similar water and parametres and he breeds shrimp in his tank very well, but again, his set up is established and much more educated on the topic than I, thus I will wait as advised and see what my options are in the near future. Not really rushing things...just anxious for cycle to finish and see where i am at.

Thank you for  your opinion though, always appreciated.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zebra
45 minutes ago, Zoidburg said:

I'm kind of with the other resource....

 

KH too high for Caridinas, GH potentially too low

GH definitely too low for Neocaridina

 

I wouldn't recommend putting either type of shrimp into that tank unless you are able to find shrimp from parameters that are near identical to your own.

I also wouldn't recommend using tap water on a buffering substrate as that causes the substrate to lose it's buffering capacities quicker, thus resulting in it not being able to buffer the pH down to desirable levels.

 

I have heard of people keeping Crystals in tanks with a pH of 5.0-5.8 range...

I'm not really sure any of that is correct there zoidberg, 

CRS like a kh range from 0-2, but at 0 your a lot more likely to encounter ph swings, seeing as my tap water kh is only 2 it's fine to use, saves having to remineralise for kh aswell, Plus assuming you buffer down the ph and add minerals before adding water to the tank like  most shrimp keepers do it makes no difference. 

Yeah the gh is a tad low but it's a great starting point for either species, I've bred both in this water and they thrive. 

Having access to rain water or RO is good to prevent the kh rising down the track from lack of exact maintenance.  

Like yeah at the end of the day perfection would be RO remineralised exactly etc, but even then I'm sure most crs keepers remineralise their kh at 33ppm(2dkh) anyway so tbh with this water I'm not sure it's worth the extra efforts just for the satisfaction of knowing there's 17ppm less of bicarbonates in the water.

tbh if I was worried about anything it would be heavy metals and things we can't easily test for. 

Edited by Zebra
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mapsyd

Quick question as I seem to be getting confused.... with the kH and gH test.

When I do the kH test I fill the tube and add drops until solution turns bright yellow...well it's taken 3 drops to get there...3 kH. The weird thing is my tap water never goes blue with first drop! it is a sort of pale yellow ish colour and after 3 drops it then turns bright yellow....

The one I have trouble with is the gH test, how green should the solution turn? slightly green or very dark green? instructions just say green but with my vision is only pale green at 2 drops.

Do I also count the first drop in total or only drops after the initial one?

Hate this thing...not very clear cut...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zebra

Shake the bottle well before adding it to the test tube,

Rinse test tubes with the same aquarium water your testing before filling.

Make sure you cap and shake between drops.

The way I judge it is:

If it turns slightly green for example on 3, then darker on 4, I write down gh 3-4.

You can look down through the tube to get a better reading.

Count ALL drops, out loud as I add them helps for me as I have a frail memory lol

The cheaper kits like API can be a bit of a hassle, so don't worry too much, for example on the nitrate test the 5, 10, and 20ppm are all the same shade of orange lol. Apart from this the rest of the API kits like gh etc. seem to work fine.

Edited by Zebra
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mapsyd

Thank you Zebra...I will test again....lol

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zoidburg
8 hours ago, Zebra said:

I'm not really sure any of that is correct there zoidberg, 

CRS like a kh range from 0-2, but at 0 your a lot more likely to encounter ph swings, seeing as my tap water kh is only 2 it's fine to use, saves having to remineralise for kh aswell, Plus assuming you buffer down the ph and add minerals before adding water to the tank like  most shrimp keepers do it makes no difference. 

Yeah the gh is a tad low but it's a great starting point for either species, I've bred both in this water and they thrive. 

Having access to rain water or RO is good to prevent the kh rising down the track from lack of exact maintenance.  

Like yeah at the end of the day perfection would be RO remineralised exactly etc, but even then I'm sure most crs keepers remineralise their kh at 33ppm(2dkh) anyway so tbh with this water I'm not sure it's worth the extra efforts just for the satisfaction of knowing there's 17ppm less of bicarbonates in the water.

tbh if I was worried about anything it would be heavy metals and things we can't easily test for. 

If you are using a buffering substrate, then the substrate will keep the pH in check.

Buffering substrate works by removing KH from the water column. By adding KH back into the water, you could be causing pH swings and exhausting your substrate faster. In other words, it'll lose it's buffering capacities quicker than if there was no KH in the water.

Most Bee/Caridina keepers I've spoken with do not add KH to their water. In fact, they generally *ONLY* use RO/DI water with GH+ minerals. Very few, and I mean less than a handful, are keeping Crystals in tap water with KH.

 

6 hours ago, Mapsyd said:

Quick question as I seem to be getting confused.... with the kH and gH test.

When I do the kH test I fill the tube and add drops until solution turns bright yellow...well it's taken 3 drops to get there...3 kH. The weird thing is my tap water never goes blue with first drop! it is a sort of pale yellow ish colour and after 3 drops it then turns bright yellow....

The one I have trouble with is the gH test, how green should the solution turn? slightly green or very dark green? instructions just say green but with my vision is only pale green at 2 drops.

Do I also count the first drop in total or only drops after the initial one?

Hate this thing...not very clear cut...

1 drop = 1 dGH°

0 and 1 would read the same, unless you used 10ml of water. If 1 drop in 10ml turns the water yellow, then it's 0. If the water turns yellow at 2 drops in 10ml, then it's 1 KH.

Granted, it's hard enough to see 1 drop in 5ml when it shows at 0...

 

 

During cycle, yes, the parameters don't really matter. After cycling, it does. There are two tanks here set up with Controsoil, and both tanks have RO water in them for the cycling process as we don't want to exhaust the substrate.

 

It may be a good idea to find a supplier for shrimp and find out what they keep their shrimp at. Once you know that information, you can then get your tank close to their parameters so the shrimp will acclimate to your tank faster. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mapsyd

Hi guys. Got a probably stupid question but here goes...

With ADA amazonia as I understand it, it pretty much wipes out the kH of the water and maintains a lower pH. Question is, what about the BB? how does this affect their ability to absorb and nullify and utilise ammonia and so forth without kH? I thought from my researching that when one cycles a tank there needs to be some kH in the water because BB use that as a process for metabolising the compounds in the water column? ( and for reproduction/multiplying)

So, after cycled, how do these bacteria synthesise the ammonia/nitrites when there is no kH in the water and also in the low pH? as for cycling a new tank, I was suggested to keep pH around 6.8- 7 to allow bacterial growth...

I am very confused or just tired! lol

But I hope you see what I mean. If we need kH and higher pH in water column to multiply and allow bacteria to establish what happens after it is "established" and tank runs at 0 kH and low pH? will the bacteria thus not go dormant? or will they only be able to handle a small amount of ammonia and so forth?

And lastly, the gH of the water can that affect the pH or just the kH? can one have a 0 kH and 4-5 gH and a pH of 6.5- 6.8 or higher/lower. I get confused with the gH, would have thought kH is a component of gH.

And if one ads a calcium product to bring gH up will that not affect the pH and raise that? is there a product that can do that? as was mentioned in previous posting that my gH to low for Neocaridina.

Sorry for the rant...any enlightenment would be great.

Thank you.

Edited by Mapsyd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zoidburg

@Mapsyd That's correct that ADA Amazonia removes KH from the water, which is why it's not recommended to use tap water on this substrate.

I have not heard that BB require KH in the water, only that they prefer higher pH to help establish themselves. That said, they can, and will, still grow in lower pH parameters, it'll just take a little longer for them to establish themselves. The main thing with ADA Amazonia is that it may require doing water changes every 2-3 days to keep the ammonia down... i.e. in the 2-4ppm range. If the ammonia gets above that, it might be a good idea to do a water change to lower it.

 

KH is carbonates and bi-carbonates.

GH is your basic minerals particularly calcium and magnesium.

 

Yes, GH can play a role in the pH of the aquarium, but the KH plays a larger role. It's possible to have 0 KH, 5-6 GH and a pH of 5. (depending on how well the soil, or other acids/tannins buffer the pH down)

 

At minimum, you want to use Seachem Equilibrium, but if you have access to it, there are also shrimp specific remineralizers. SL-Aqua, Lowkeys, MK-Breed, Shrimp Nature, Shrimp Lab, Salty Shrimp...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mapsyd

Thank you @Zoidburg.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mapsyd

Oh dear....looks like things are moving in a weird direction... took readings this morning:

pH 6.8 (still)

ammonia 0.25-0.5 ppm

nitrite 0 ppm

nitrates did not check

kH 3-4 

gH 1-2 !!

not sure what is going on....seems general hardness has dropped and kH slightly also... and still no ammonia at zero! it's been 2 weeks now so not counting my chickens before they hatch that's for sure.... will have TDS pen this week so maybe that will help with further understanding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jayc
15 hours ago, Mapsyd said:

If we need kH and higher pH in water column to multiply and allow bacteria to establish what happens after it is "established" and tank runs at 0 kH and low pH? will the bacteria thus not go dormant?

This is where the bacteria will "self" regulate based on the conditions of the tank. When ammonia is low they will die off and thus reduce the amount of bacteria needed to process the waste. When nitrogenous waste increase, they multiply to increase their capacity to process more waste. So this process of dying off and multiplying regulates their numbers to deal with the changing conditions. Likewise, when KH and pH are low, the nitrogenous waste become less toxic, and the bacteria become more dormant as the pH drops. And the bacteria become more active as pH increases, where ammonia is more toxic at higher alkaline levels. See how nature works?

 

15 hours ago, Mapsyd said:

And if one ads a calcium product to bring gH up will that not affect the pH and raise that? is there a product that can do that?

Plenty of products that raise GH but not KH or pH.

Calcium Sulphate & Magnesium sulphate are the minerals. -> I have a DIY post in the Water Parameters section to make your own remineraliser, if you feel like making your own.

Zoidburg has already mentioned a few commercial brands that make the same thing. Salty shrimp GH+ is the most readily available in Aus.

Edited by jayc
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jayc
31 minutes ago, Mapsyd said:

looks like things are moving in a weird direction... took readings this morning:

pH 6.8 (still)

ammonia 0.25-0.5 ppm

nitrite 0 ppm

nitrates did not check

kH 3-4 

gH 1-2 !!

not sure what is going on....seems general hardness has dropped and kH slightly also

Nothing to worry about. GH, KH and pH dropping during cycling is all part of the cycling process. 

pH should be falling as well. But you might not be detecting it accurately enough using colour test kits. Get a pH meter pen. That and the TDS pen are the two best investments (in terms of aquarium tools) you can make in this hobby.

 

34 minutes ago, Mapsyd said:

and still no ammonia at zero!

Unfortunately that is one of the characteristics of ADA amazonia substrate ... it takes a long time to cycle.

You have not provided one of the more important water parameters for cycling yet ... temperature.

Bacteria love the warmer temps. They multiply faster.

What is your temp in the tank? 

Crank it up to 28degC while cycling, then reduce it to suit your shrimps after the cycling is done.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mapsyd
12 minutes ago, jayc said:

Nothing to worry about. GH, KH and pH dropping during cycling is all part of the cycling process. 

pH should be falling as well. But you might not be detecting it accurately enough using colour test kits. Get a pH meter pen. That and the TDS pen are the two best investments (in terms of aquarium tools) you can make in this hobby.

 

Unfortunately that is one of the characteristics of ADA amazonia substrate ... it takes a long time to cycle.

You have not provided one of the more important water parameters for cycling yet ... temperature.

Bacteria love the warmer temps. They multiply faster.

What is your temp in the tank? 

Crank it up to 28degC while cycling, then reduce it to suit your shrimps after the cycling is done.

 

Sorry jayc....temperature is at 22 c.... was thinking this would be good for future shrimp? Thank you for your explanations, really appreciate them. Do you think I may have to buy salty shrimp later after the cycle or too hard to tell ATM?

PS I have TDS and pH pens arriving today or tomorrow....bought them as a combo. Not sure how accurate they will be though lol only from Ebay.

Edited by Mapsyd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jayc
20 minutes ago, Mapsyd said:

temperature is at 22 c.... was thinking this would be good for future shrimp?

22degC is good for shrimp but turn it up while cycling when there are no shrimp/fish in the tank now.

The warmer temps will help speed up the cycling. Turn it back down to 22C after the tank is cycled.

 

Salty Shrimp GH+ is always going to be handy when you need to adjust TDS and GH. So a small container will be useful. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mapsyd

Thank you @jayc.....have cranked it up and we will see how it progresses....funny, I would have thought the ammonia levels would be sky high as I read some people have had it up to 8 ppm! mine though peaked at 4 ppm only once and has been under 1 ppm for over a week....perhaps cycled media helped? hopefully this won't be a 8 week affair!!! lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zebra
On 09/07/2017 at 2:05 AM, Zoidburg said:

If you are using a buffering substrate, then the substrate will keep the pH in check.


Buffering substrate works by removing KH from the water column. By adding KH back into the water, you could be causing pH swings and exhausting your substrate faster. In other words, it'll lose it's buffering capacities quicker than if there was no KH in the water.

Most Bee/Caridina keepers I've spoken with do not add KH to their water. In fact, they generally *ONLY* use RO/DI water with GH+ minerals. Very few, and I mean less than a handful, are keeping Crystals in tap water with KH.

 

1 drop = 1 dGH°

0 and 1 would read the same, unless you used 10ml of water. If 1 drop in 10ml turns the water yellow, then it's 0. If the water turns yellow at 2 drops in 10ml, then it's 1 KH.

Granted, it's hard enough to see 1 drop in 5ml when it shows at 0...

 

 

During cycle, yes, the parameters don't really matter. After cycling, it does. There are two tanks here set up with Controsoil, and both tanks have RO water in them for the cycling process as we don't want to exhaust the substrate.

 

It may be a good idea to find a supplier for shrimp and find out what they keep their shrimp at. Once you know that information, you can then get your tank close to their parameters so the shrimp will acclimate to your tank faster. :)

My breeder has like 50 tanks all with soil and bees or tigers etc, I thought I'd double check with him, he says crs prefer kh 2-4, and I would listen to him over you zoidberg. 0kh is just silly, I chimed in cause I'm keeping this species in the afore mentioned tap water, what about you? 

Saying in such an indefinite manner the gh is too low to keep either species in our tap water is  like saying You can't keep shrimp in RO without remineralising- yeah obviously.

I think your starting to confuse the op with stuff like this.

On a side note I was looking at it yesterday and I wouldn't use seachem gh+ it's all chloride based, including actual salt (sodium chloride) 

potassium chloride

calcium chloride

magnesium chloride- ????wtf?

sodium chloride-????wtf?

I don't see how you can't understand that you should buffer the water and remineralise BEFORE adding it to the tank, that way there is no extra bicarbonates so it makes NO difference zoidberg. 

If there's the right amount of bicarbonates the fulvic and Humic acids in the aquasoil doesn't need to neautralise them if you want to get technical about it, so yeah in short NO you don't need RO to keep crs with our tap water, TONS of people also keep and breed them in Aquascapes with seiryu etc and high kh. The mironekuton webites pics are literally crs climbing over a mironekuton stone which raises kh, ph and gh so..

My breeder also said "if it works for you do it" 

so yeah if it works for you do it, and this works well for him, me and many other breeders.

My babies are cranking along and loving life. Loving their boss aquaria baby powder :)

IMG_3917.PNG

Edited by Zebra
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Madmerv

I think a lot of people get caught up in trying to keep their pets (shrimp/fish) in the perfect WP.

While trying to keep them in water that is similar to their natural habitat is good and can yield some great results we have to keep in mind that most of the common breeds have been in aquariums for many generations and are therefor more accustomed to living, breeding and being happy in a wide range of water.

Although i only keep RCS and Palamonties Australis which  are the hardiest of all i can give a very good example of this.

The RCS are in an indoor show tank at a constant 21 deg, winter rain water is added and that can bring down all the WP (not temp) to TDS 78, KH >1 GH <2 And a PH that slowly rises between WC to 7.2. In summer the tank only gets tap water and at it's worst it was TDS 750, KH <4  GH <7 and PH 7.8. Shrimp were happy, breeding, swimming and a doing their shrimp thing.

The WA glassies and RCS are also in my outside tank and pond. Same thing. Tap water in summer and rain in winter but with the Temp going from extremes of 28 deg to 8 deg. They dont like the 28 deg but still lived and there are a stack of shrimpetes before it got to cold.

The harsh reality is if you have 10 shrimp is your tank, 8 die but 2 spawn. 95% of the new shrimp will do really well in your water parameters. They have adjusted to what your water contains.

Leave the perfect WP until you start going exotics or are looking for maximum yield in a breeding situation.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mapsyd

Gee guys...I sure feel bad if I caused any disagreements between @Zoidburg and @Zebra....in a way I guess you are both specialists with shrimp and have both offered some great insights into what I have embarked on and for that I am very grateful. I guess that is the aim of these fantastic forums, to have open discussions and at times we may not agree but let me tell you, it is great to have all of you contribute to my postings and random obscure questions, it has taught me heaps thus far and hope to continue to learn from you all. (including @Madmerv and @jayc) Thanks again guys and I am sure I will keep dumb questions coming!!! ....LOL

As a note, @Zebra it has been really great to have someone with similar water to mine, sure makes a difference in learning what to do and what not to do, thanks again. PS those baby CRS are just magic! one of the reasons I like shrimp so much...they are just inherently "cute"...

Edited by Mapsyd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zoidburg

If you are going to use a buffering substrate, you might as well go with RO water with GH+ minerals. Why cause potential pH swings and have your soil lose it's buffering capacity sooner???

 

I guess keeping Bee Shrimp here in the USA is just different to Australia. Very few people keep Crystals (or other bee shrimp) in tap water, and some of the ones that have have failed at keeping a thriving colony.

 

Here's the recommended parameters for shrimp kept over here. (give or take)

https://www.discobee.com/blogs/news/17030569-dwarf-shrimp-water-parameters

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mapsyd

Thanks @Zoidburg for the link provided, but allow me to just remind you that in my original post I did mention that I am wanting to also keep RCS once again so if all goes "balls up" with my parametres at least I know I can do slight tweaking to allow me to have them instead of just CRS. I am happy either way and yes, in a perfect world I would love to have both species in the tank but if that is not what fate dictates in the long run I will stick to whichever will be easier to manage with my ability and time constraints. Seems the latter conversations here have been slightly slanted towards the housing of CRS only...I am happy to just one species if that is all that can be managed. I just no longer want fish in that tank...in such a small space it was really laborious. I hope that is cleared up and again thank you for your ongoing advice and help, look forward to more of your guidance in the future.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zoidburg

If at all possible, just find shrimp that are being kept and raised in the parameters that you want to keep them in for a better chance of success! :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mapsyd

Hi guys. OK...weird if not shocking readings this morning....I received my TDS pen and tested my tap water 25 ppm and aquarium 64-65 ppm!!!! my god that is low! what do I make of these readings? mind you, the temp. metre on pen was way off!! lol

Edited by Mapsyd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zoidburg

Not too surprising, considering the KH and GH....although you do want it around 150-180 at least for Crystals and Cherries... remineralizing with a GH+ only mineral will at least fix part of that issue... and there are some "TDS Up" like products that can help raise the TDS, although I haven't looked into them, so I don't know what's *IN* them....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mapsyd

Thanks again @Zoidburg....but here is the clincher....new pH pen arrived also and after calibrating it my aquarium pH is 7.1!! and tap water is 7-7.1.....when I did the API test it is showing between 6.6-6.8! what the ####? do I trust the pen or API? be impossible to have ADA and have a pH that high with inert rocks and driftwood....I am at a loss here....lol

So, would salty shrimp help later on? still confused on how i would add that to the water...would I have to empty all water from aquarium and add it to aquarium or just do the re-fill water?

Thanks again...

PS just rechecked TDS 72-73 ppm in aquarium....weird....

Edited by Mapsyd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Madmerv
3 hours ago, Mapsyd said:

 

PS just rechecked TDS 72-73 ppm in aquarium....weird....

A TDS pen needs to have the filament end soaked for a little while for it to work correctly. The older ones were a nightmare to try and keep wet.

Just remember the test equipment, strips, fluids, pens are not lab grade. What we are getting is just a guide really. PH of 6.8 or 7.1 is neither here nor there. 5.8 to 7.1 would be a worry because 1 number on the PH scale is 10x the difference.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Must Read SKF Articles

  • Register today, ask questions and share your shrimp and fish tank experiences with us!

    Join Our Community!

  • Posts

    • Blue Ridge
      If it makes you feel any better, what you've done happens all the time! Acid-buffering substrate with a CACO3 stone that "fight" one another, and conflicting information between the two genera of shrimp can cause a lot of confusion. But where you are right now should be a perfect environment for crystals, bees, and such. Aqua soil, remineralized RO water (GH+ only, not the KH and GH product) and you should be all set for most Caridina. If buying shrimp online, just be sure that they are "home bred" and not imports. Survival rate is typically much higher this way. I prefer to buy from other hobbyists whenever possible. If you really want cherries (Neocaridina) they will live on Aqua Soil but the water will always be softer and more acidic than ideal. But cherries are tough creatures and people keep them in tanks set up for Caridina all the time with success. As for how long the substrate buffers, that is determined by how much "work" it has to do. If using soft water and no lime based stones in the aquarium, it is said go for many years. You don't want to speed that up in my opinion, kind of defeats the purpose of buying buffering soil.
    • Steensj2004
      How low does this substrate buffer, inknownit isn’t an exact science, but has anyone had experience? The PH has parked at 6.4-6.5. 
    • jayc
      Hah! LOL, how did I know. If I was going to put a bet on one or the other, it would be the rocks from Phillip Island ... from the beach. How to test? do the vinegar test. Take out a bit of gravel, and a small stone. drop some vinegar on them to see if you get a reaction. Alternate test is to put them in a cup of water. Test the water GH and KH before adding, then test again after a few hours to see if KH and GH have increased.
    • Crabclaw
      ahh shoot. gravel was washed about 20 times thru, and rocks were boiled. gravel was sold as aquarium safe gravel, but the rocks were from phillip island, along the beach... how could i just test 1 or 2 to see if that's why? (they're all the same type, but i have a few big ones that r heavy and a bunch of small ones that i can test with)
    • jayc
      That means you have something else in the tank that is leeching carbonates - like a rock, or gravel or shell grit.
×