Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
xrayguy

red cherry shrimp dying

Recommended Posts

xrayguy

Ok I need some help

1 week ago, my LFS and I decided to try and treat what I thought was fin rot on my 6 neon tetras.  We looked up bifurcan, and mulitple links on the internet said it was ok for invertebrates. Before the medication my colony was 50-70 rcs.

 

So i treated the tank, 2 days later all my shrimp where huddle up in the corner of the tank at the top.  We stopped the treatment and did daily water changes( for 4 days, including the changes with the medication) to get rid of the medication.  Each time I changed the water I use seacham prime.  After the water cleared, I noticed 1 or 2 bodies in the corner.  I also noticed a few molts as well.  I've been losing 4/6 shrimp a day for the last 4 or 5 days now.

 

My numbers are 

ph 7.6/7.8 ( which is the norm for my tank before the problems)

amonia 0.5 ( higher than my norm, but also lots of corpses)

nitrates 0

nitrites 0

g.h 1

 

I haven't done a w.c,  in a few days, but am still loosing my beloved shrimp. 

 

Any ideas what I can do?

thanx

richard

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jayc
12 minutes ago, xrayguy said:

bifurcan

Sorry to hear the issues you are facing. :chicken_nervous:

Never heard of bifurcan. What is it? Got a link?

Usual treatments are tetracycline based medication. My google fu turned up nothing useful.

 

14 minutes ago, xrayguy said:

amonia 0.5

That's not good. Should be no detectable Ammonia. That's high enough to cause deaths in shrimp. Could the medication have caused the beneficial bacteria to die off?

 

Do you have a hospital tank? Getting the shrimp out of the medicated water is probably the priority right now. I guess not, since you treated the whole tank, sick and healthy, rather than removing only the sick fish.

A hospital tank is a great excuse for a 2nd tank. You can keep other fish or shrimp in it, and treat it as an emergency tank for situations like this.

Maybe you can try using a whole lot of activated carbon to remove as much chemicals as possible, while keeping up your water changes.

Are you also gravel vacuuming during the water changes?

If not, do that immediately. Meds can still be trapped in the gravel, and normal water changes won't get them out from the gravel/substrate.

 

33 minutes ago, xrayguy said:

Any ideas what I can do?

One more ... find another LFS

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xrayguy

Sorry medication was called bifuran.

No I don't have a quarantine tank ( although I think wife might be talked into it now)
That amonia level is high for my tank ( i don't think i've ever had it that high)

I put brand new charcoil filter in on sunday to get rid of medications..

 

LFS is good about discussing issues and not trying to sell me stuff.  LFS knows alot about products/organisms/plants/fish and is well respected on vancouver island in the fish community.

r

 

N

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Matuva

Beneificial bacterias might have passed away. Do you have access to SERA Bio Nititvec? I have saved several shrimps with it, and it even allow me to introduce shrimps in a  only 1 hour old tank.

Of course I always try to cycle my tanks, but that were emergency cases, and it works.

If no Bio Nitrivec available, I believe SeaChem Stability, API Quick Start, or other start water conditioner will help. By the way, what is the temperature of your tank?

Edited by Matuva
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zoidburg

Bifuran

 

81WFwcB37HL._SL1500_.jpg

 

 

I don't know if Bifuran is actually invert safe, but a GH of 1 I do find concerning... since most shrimp do best in around 5 GH, cherries typically better in 6-8 GH. Has the GH always been that low?

 

 

Also, I've seen shrimp *thriving* in a tank with 0.25 ammonia... Tank crashed though once the owner went away due to family emergencies and was away for a few months... she thinks that the tank nearly died off because the tank wasn't fed enough (had hundreds, if not thousands of shrimp lining the bottom, as well as mollies swimming at the top and several healthy plants in the tank), but I'm guessing that whoever was watching the tank could have over-fed the tank and/or didn't do enough water changes... and the ammonia levels became too toxic for the tank to handle... thus killing off most of the inhabitants, plants included... (rather than the idea that they weren't fed enough, so they ate the plants...)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xrayguy

I don't know if my GH has always been that low.  LFS tested it for me yesterday.  My test kit doesn't have that ( API master kit)

Temp is set at 75 F/24 C

I did a google search of bifuran and several forums said it was safe for shrimp.  I'm not feeling that way right now.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jayc

"Bifuran is a mixture of Nitrofurazone (80%) and Furazolidone (20%). Bifuran possesses bacteriostatic, bacteriocidal and antimicrobial properties useful for treating and controlling bacterial and sporozonoan diseases. It is indicated for the control of Aeromonas spp.,Vibrio spp., and other bacterial pathogens. Bifuran treats external diseases AND internal (systemic) diseases. It can be used as a bath (or dip), a total pond treatment or it can be given orally. It is very effective for controlling ulcers, fin rot, mouth rot and tail rot. Bifuran is a very effective total pond treatment.

Bifuran will be an additional ingredient in DebrideRX medicated food starting in mid-2006. Bifuran is a very cost effective treatment for koi and goldfish. When used as a total pond treatment, 100 grams treats 1,000 gallons. 1 kilo (2.2 lbs.) treats 10,000 gallons. As a dip, it is dosed at 100mg/gallon."

 

Found that on the internet.

Probably depends on what dosage you used as well.

Most meds assume you are treating fish, and do not take into account a lower dosage for inverts like bee shrimp.

All the more reason for a hospital tank. Only give treatment and meds to the sick. 

I think your best move now would be to do gravel vacuum water changes, and stabilise the ammonia build up.

And check that GH value, it could be the KH

Invest in a GH/KH test kit, its a 2in1. They are not that expensive. Also invest in a TDS meter. They are cheap now, and will be the best test kit invest apart from a pH pen.

Edited by jayc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jayc

I did more research on Bifuran.

It is  Broadspectrum - which means it kills both Gram negative and Gram positive bacteria.

API have a similar (same) product called Furan2.  

Their active ingredients are made up of two forms of Furans, hence the name.

Furans are antibacteria manufactured artificially.

Doing a search on API's version Furan2, which I presume is more popular, turns up many instances of "do not use with inverts".

So the product is not safe for inverts or shrimps.

 

<edit> - I'm going to write a new post on the following but I'll add it here first since it's relevant.

Some common antibiotics used in aquariums:

  • Erythromycin which treats gram positive bacteria and is best used in an alkaline environment (pH of 7 and up).
  • Aminoglycosides marketed as Neomycin, Kanamycin and Streptomycin are active against gram negative bacteria and work well in alkaline water conditions.
  • Sulfonamide known as sulfa or triple sulfa have antibacterial characteristics inhibiting the growth of bacteria. An alkaline environment is preferred and Sulfonamide as well as Aminoglycosides can be used in marine environments.
  • Nitrofurans (Furane, Nitrofurazone) are also antibacterial but will loose their potency with increasing pH levels. They are therefore preferred freshwater treatments as is the tetracycline group.
  • Tetracycline is bacteriostatic, inhibiting protein synthesis. This drug will get less effective in hard waters as it readily binds with calcium and magnesium.
  • Quinolones, antibacterial to treat gram negative bacteria, prevents DNA synthesis and can be used in a broad pH spectrum.

Bacterial diseases in fish can face antibiotic resistance, which means that the bacteria strain has mutated leaving it unaffected by the antibiotic. Another antibiotic will have to be used should this occur.

Bacterial diseases are not contagious and infected fish should be treated separately in a well aerated hospital tank. Antibiotics are potent by themselves and never meant to be used in combination, as some of them can eliminate each other or create toxic effects for fish.

Keep in mind that the beneficial bacteria are gram negative as well.

Edited by jayc
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xrayguy

Thanx for the info JayC.  

This has proven to be a costly neon tetra.

I've invested in a GH/KH test kit.  And am using an additive to raise my levels.

The shrimp that remain seem active and happy ( eating swimming etc)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Must Read SKF Articles

  • Join Our Community!

    Register today, ask questions and share your shrimp and fish tank experiences with us!

  • Posts

    • sdlTBfanUK
      If you can get one of these where you are it is probably the best all round for quietness and sufficient 'as it is' for your quarantine tank, there is a great video attached, you probably won't want the air line if you want quietness though! If you watch the video you may find you can replace the supplied sponge with an already used bacteria full sponge if you have one available, otherwise if you put the supplied new  sponge in an existing tank for a couple of weeks (just float it in the tank) to get bacteria into it? This will slightly delay getting the fish, assuming you haven't already got them........ You may be able to get one of these on your local ebay or amazon? https://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/internal-filters/2104-aquael-pat-mini-filter-5905546137997.html Simon  
    • Zoidburg
      Sponge filters can be noisy if not set up properly.... one method of quieting some (depending on style) is to put an air stone at the base of the sponge filter, making smaller bubbles. Another method is to have the 'out-take' of the sponge filter just above the waters surface. It still makes noise, it's just quieter.   In the bird world, a minimum of 30 days is recommended for quarantine (which is hard for most people to do effectively), although up to 90 days can also be recommended. I know that one shrimp supplier does 30 day quarantine for new imported shrimp. I don't know if there's a standard set in the fish world.... but I have both quarantined fish and not quarantined fish. The fish I quarantined I struggled to keep alive, but not quarantining them didn't guarantee survival either... I only have shrimp tanks now, although I did add fish to one of those tanks, without quarantine. No other fish in there so no 'real' reason to quarantine, even though I did source the fish from two separate locations (just because first option only had 2 and they do better in groups). I *think* they are doing fine, but they are a species known for hiding and don't usually all come out at once so hard to say for sure.
    • sdlTBfanUK
      Sorry to hear you have lost a shrimp. How many are there left in the tank? I wouldn't act to hastily and start treating for something that may not be? Maybe it just died and you will never know why if it had no symptoms? Just keep a close eye on the rest for now! Maybe the BKK weren't very healthy to start with if they hadn't grown as expected, though also there may not have been sufficient food, but that is less likely if the others in the tank have grown! I would feed the shrimps as the grazing area is fairly limited (I assume this is your 80L divided into 4) but sparingly, maybe twice a week. Crush up a pellet into almost a powder, then dip a pin or similar a couple of mm in the water, then into the food, then back in to the tank will give them something different to eat to supplement their diet. I would check the temperature of the water as well as when my old setup overheated they started going an orange/pink colour? It is good that you obviously spend time watching them as they are fascinating to watch and very calming!  Simon
    • Crabby
      Perfect. I've got a spare heater, can source a tank and filtration, have cycled media, and have a simple light if ambient light isn't enough.  Pretty random question - are sponge filters super noisy? I've never used one with an air pump, and the qt tank would go in my bedroom; but only if I could actually sleep 🙂. Otherwise, is it cool to turn off a filter at night? Cheers
    • jayc
      Usually a week or two should be enough with careful observation to see if any symptoms develop.   No. But it depends on the filtration. If you use a mature filter, then you don't need to cycle a quarantine tank for very long. I just use the water from my water change to fill a quarantine tank. And some old filter media floss from a mature filter in the quarantine tank's canister. The quarantine tank is very basic, no decor, no substrate, nothing. Except maybe some lights to check for diseases after a week or two. You can get away with lights, and use a hand held torch even.  Just a heater.
×
×
  • Create New...