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xrayguy

red cherry shrimp dying

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xrayguy

Ok I need some help

1 week ago, my LFS and I decided to try and treat what I thought was fin rot on my 6 neon tetras.  We looked up bifurcan, and mulitple links on the internet said it was ok for invertebrates. Before the medication my colony was 50-70 rcs.

 

So i treated the tank, 2 days later all my shrimp where huddle up in the corner of the tank at the top.  We stopped the treatment and did daily water changes( for 4 days, including the changes with the medication) to get rid of the medication.  Each time I changed the water I use seacham prime.  After the water cleared, I noticed 1 or 2 bodies in the corner.  I also noticed a few molts as well.  I've been losing 4/6 shrimp a day for the last 4 or 5 days now.

 

My numbers are 

ph 7.6/7.8 ( which is the norm for my tank before the problems)

amonia 0.5 ( higher than my norm, but also lots of corpses)

nitrates 0

nitrites 0

g.h 1

 

I haven't done a w.c,  in a few days, but am still loosing my beloved shrimp. 

 

Any ideas what I can do?

thanx

richard

 

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jayc
12 minutes ago, xrayguy said:

bifurcan

Sorry to hear the issues you are facing. :chicken_nervous:

Never heard of bifurcan. What is it? Got a link?

Usual treatments are tetracycline based medication. My google fu turned up nothing useful.

 

14 minutes ago, xrayguy said:

amonia 0.5

That's not good. Should be no detectable Ammonia. That's high enough to cause deaths in shrimp. Could the medication have caused the beneficial bacteria to die off?

 

Do you have a hospital tank? Getting the shrimp out of the medicated water is probably the priority right now. I guess not, since you treated the whole tank, sick and healthy, rather than removing only the sick fish.

A hospital tank is a great excuse for a 2nd tank. You can keep other fish or shrimp in it, and treat it as an emergency tank for situations like this.

Maybe you can try using a whole lot of activated carbon to remove as much chemicals as possible, while keeping up your water changes.

Are you also gravel vacuuming during the water changes?

If not, do that immediately. Meds can still be trapped in the gravel, and normal water changes won't get them out from the gravel/substrate.

 

33 minutes ago, xrayguy said:

Any ideas what I can do?

One more ... find another LFS

 

 

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xrayguy

Sorry medication was called bifuran.

No I don't have a quarantine tank ( although I think wife might be talked into it now)
That amonia level is high for my tank ( i don't think i've ever had it that high)

I put brand new charcoil filter in on sunday to get rid of medications..

 

LFS is good about discussing issues and not trying to sell me stuff.  LFS knows alot about products/organisms/plants/fish and is well respected on vancouver island in the fish community.

r

 

N

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Matuva

Beneificial bacterias might have passed away. Do you have access to SERA Bio Nititvec? I have saved several shrimps with it, and it even allow me to introduce shrimps in a  only 1 hour old tank.

Of course I always try to cycle my tanks, but that were emergency cases, and it works.

If no Bio Nitrivec available, I believe SeaChem Stability, API Quick Start, or other start water conditioner will help. By the way, what is the temperature of your tank?

Edited by Matuva
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Zoidburg

Bifuran

 

81WFwcB37HL._SL1500_.jpg

 

 

I don't know if Bifuran is actually invert safe, but a GH of 1 I do find concerning... since most shrimp do best in around 5 GH, cherries typically better in 6-8 GH. Has the GH always been that low?

 

 

Also, I've seen shrimp *thriving* in a tank with 0.25 ammonia... Tank crashed though once the owner went away due to family emergencies and was away for a few months... she thinks that the tank nearly died off because the tank wasn't fed enough (had hundreds, if not thousands of shrimp lining the bottom, as well as mollies swimming at the top and several healthy plants in the tank), but I'm guessing that whoever was watching the tank could have over-fed the tank and/or didn't do enough water changes... and the ammonia levels became too toxic for the tank to handle... thus killing off most of the inhabitants, plants included... (rather than the idea that they weren't fed enough, so they ate the plants...)

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xrayguy

I don't know if my GH has always been that low.  LFS tested it for me yesterday.  My test kit doesn't have that ( API master kit)

Temp is set at 75 F/24 C

I did a google search of bifuran and several forums said it was safe for shrimp.  I'm not feeling that way right now.

 

 

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jayc

"Bifuran is a mixture of Nitrofurazone (80%) and Furazolidone (20%). Bifuran possesses bacteriostatic, bacteriocidal and antimicrobial properties useful for treating and controlling bacterial and sporozonoan diseases. It is indicated for the control of Aeromonas spp.,Vibrio spp., and other bacterial pathogens. Bifuran treats external diseases AND internal (systemic) diseases. It can be used as a bath (or dip), a total pond treatment or it can be given orally. It is very effective for controlling ulcers, fin rot, mouth rot and tail rot. Bifuran is a very effective total pond treatment.

Bifuran will be an additional ingredient in DebrideRX medicated food starting in mid-2006. Bifuran is a very cost effective treatment for koi and goldfish. When used as a total pond treatment, 100 grams treats 1,000 gallons. 1 kilo (2.2 lbs.) treats 10,000 gallons. As a dip, it is dosed at 100mg/gallon."

 

Found that on the internet.

Probably depends on what dosage you used as well.

Most meds assume you are treating fish, and do not take into account a lower dosage for inverts like bee shrimp.

All the more reason for a hospital tank. Only give treatment and meds to the sick. 

I think your best move now would be to do gravel vacuum water changes, and stabilise the ammonia build up.

And check that GH value, it could be the KH

Invest in a GH/KH test kit, its a 2in1. They are not that expensive. Also invest in a TDS meter. They are cheap now, and will be the best test kit invest apart from a pH pen.

Edited by jayc

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jayc

I did more research on Bifuran.

It is  Broadspectrum - which means it kills both Gram negative and Gram positive bacteria.

API have a similar (same) product called Furan2.  

Their active ingredients are made up of two forms of Furans, hence the name.

Furans are antibacteria manufactured artificially.

Doing a search on API's version Furan2, which I presume is more popular, turns up many instances of "do not use with inverts".

So the product is not safe for inverts or shrimps.

 

<edit> - I'm going to write a new post on the following but I'll add it here first since it's relevant.

Some common antibiotics used in aquariums:

  • Erythromycin which treats gram positive bacteria and is best used in an alkaline environment (pH of 7 and up).
  • Aminoglycosides marketed as Neomycin, Kanamycin and Streptomycin are active against gram negative bacteria and work well in alkaline water conditions.
  • Sulfonamide known as sulfa or triple sulfa have antibacterial characteristics inhibiting the growth of bacteria. An alkaline environment is preferred and Sulfonamide as well as Aminoglycosides can be used in marine environments.
  • Nitrofurans (Furane, Nitrofurazone) are also antibacterial but will loose their potency with increasing pH levels. They are therefore preferred freshwater treatments as is the tetracycline group.
  • Tetracycline is bacteriostatic, inhibiting protein synthesis. This drug will get less effective in hard waters as it readily binds with calcium and magnesium.
  • Quinolones, antibacterial to treat gram negative bacteria, prevents DNA synthesis and can be used in a broad pH spectrum.

Bacterial diseases in fish can face antibiotic resistance, which means that the bacteria strain has mutated leaving it unaffected by the antibiotic. Another antibiotic will have to be used should this occur.

Bacterial diseases are not contagious and infected fish should be treated separately in a well aerated hospital tank. Antibiotics are potent by themselves and never meant to be used in combination, as some of them can eliminate each other or create toxic effects for fish.

Keep in mind that the beneficial bacteria are gram negative as well.

Edited by jayc
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xrayguy

Thanx for the info JayC.  

This has proven to be a costly neon tetra.

I've invested in a GH/KH test kit.  And am using an additive to raise my levels.

The shrimp that remain seem active and happy ( eating swimming etc)

 

 

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