Jump to content

ph 8.0 out of tap - how to get down


kapp

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

Need help.

Have set up my new tank and was about to put some initial livestock in (Cherry Shrimp) and put the final set ups in place, CO2 control unit, and the tank water which is all RO filtered, came up with a pH of 8. I got a digital pH pen, calibrated it and checked the water again and it too confirmed the high pH.

Couldn't figure out what could be causing it. Then I checked my tap water and the water was coming out at pH 8.1. I'm in Sydney and the water has always usually been pretty neutral pH.

I've got CO2 going into the tank now to get the pH down but the volume going in is very high (have a 10kg CO2 cylinder) but it's barely keeping the pH down. In fact it dropped a lot initially but is slowly going up even with CO2 going in. I've put IAL's into the tank and sump but they haven't started to affect the pH yet.

The tank and sump together hold about 1100 ltrs of water. Am aiming to get a stable pH7 for the tank for when I introduce fish, ie discus and associated tank mates.

Questions:

1) How many IAL's should I use and how much will they affect the pH?

2) One of my LFS's suggested using peat moss but the product they had only lasts a month and I'd need to buy at least 6 boxes for it have any impact on the water given the size of the tank. Is there any product I can use to naturally lower pH? And if there is, where's the best place to buy it from? (Don't want to use chemicals bc it's bad for the shrimp and the phosphates would encourage algae growth.)

3) My RO water goes into a 1000 ltr water tank for when I need it for water changes. Is it worth dropping in IALs into the water tank (in a bag of some sort) to condition the water before use? If so, how many should I use and for how long?

4) Any other suggestions?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) How many IAL's should I use and how much will they affect the pH?
As many as you want. There is no hard set rule on how many to use. They may or may not affect pH.

 

2) One of my LFS's suggested using peat moss but the product they had only lasts a month and I'd need to buy at least 6 boxes for it have any impact on the water given the size of the tank. Is there any product I can use to naturally lower pH? And if there is, where's the best place to buy it from? (Don't want to use chemicals bc it's bad for the shrimp and the phosphates would encourage algae growth.)
RO/DI water or rain water. There's also alder cones.

Anything that may naturally lower the pH (re: leaves, cones, peat) will also result in tea colored water or "black water".

This would mean that it would be best to have at least one 55 gallon drum (208 liters) to store water in prior to doing water changes and either toss in a pump or an airstone to circulate the water, and toss in a bag of peat/cones/leaves to get the drum water to be the same as the tank water.

 

3) My RO water goes into a 1000 ltr water tank for when I need it for water changes. Is it worth dropping in IALs into the water tank (in a bag of some sort) to condition the water before use? If so, how many should I use and for how long?
Have you tested the pH of the water after it's sat in this tank? Sometimes, allowing water to sit out overnight and aerating it can allow the pH to drop on it's own.

If you were to try going the "black water" route, you would probably need a lot of leaves, cones and/or peat...

 

4) Any other suggestions?
What is the GH, KH and TDS of the tank?

What are those same parameters for the water going into the tank? (you mentioned RO - does it come out at 0 GH and KH? And low TDS?)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some good advice from Zoidburg there.

 

pH 8.1 for RO water is strange. Mine comes out much lower, 6.5 - 6.6.

Does the filter need replacing, maybe?

 

Take your IAL, alder cones, driftwood, peat moss, and whatever else you have, then put them in a big pot and boil it wit RO or aquarium water. Collect this boiled water, let it cool and use it in your tank. That will lower pH much faster. Otherwise it takes a long time to lower pH. Place everything you boiled back into the tank after it has cooled.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Zoidburg said:

1) How many IAL's should I use and how much will they affect the pH?
As many as you want. There is no hard set rule on how many to use. They may or may not affect pH.

 

2) One of my LFS's suggested using peat moss but the product they had only lasts a month and I'd need to buy at least 6 boxes for it have any impact on the water given the size of the tank. Is there any product I can use to naturally lower pH? And if there is, where's the best place to buy it from? (Don't want to use chemicals bc it's bad for the shrimp and the phosphates would encourage algae growth.)
RO/DI water or rain water. There's also alder cones.

Anything that may naturally lower the pH (re: leaves, cones, peat) will also result in tea colored water or "black water".

This would mean that it would be best to have at least one 55 gallon drum (208 liters) to store water in prior to doing water changes and either toss in a pump or an airstone to circulate the water, and toss in a bag of peat/cones/leaves to get the drum water to be the same as the tank water.

Thanks. Good suggestions.

13 hours ago, Zoidburg said:

 

3) My RO water goes into a 1000 ltr water tank for when I need it for water changes. Is it worth dropping in IALs into the water tank (in a bag of some sort) to condition the water before use? If so, how many should I use and for how long?
Have you tested the pH of the water after it's sat in this tank? Sometimes, allowing water to sit out overnight and aerating it can allow the pH to drop on it's own.

If you were to try going the "black water" route, you would probably need a lot of leaves, cones and/or peat...

Yep, constant monitoring via control unit on CO2 system. pH is down now but due to lots of CO2 going into the system.

13 hours ago, Zoidburg said:

 

4) Any other suggestions?
What is the GH, KH and TDS of the tank?

What are those same parameters for the water going into the tank? (you mentioned RO - does it come out at 0 GH and KH? And low TDS?)

Haven't measured GH / KH. The RO system has an inbuilt 94 going in and 62 going out.

11 hours ago, jayc said:

Some good advice from Zoidburg there.

 

pH 8.1 for RO water is strange. Mine comes out much lower, 6.5 - 6.6.

Does the filter need replacing, maybe?

It's a new RO system. I've read that any impact on pH from RO systems depends actually a lot on how much CO2 is in the water before it gets filtered and often has no impact on pH at all.

 

11 hours ago, jayc said:

Take your IAL, alder cones, driftwood, peat moss, and whatever else you have, then put them in a big pot and boil it wit RO or aquarium water. Collect this boiled water, let it cool and use it in your tank. That will lower pH much faster. Otherwise it takes a long time to lower pH. Place everything you boiled back into the tank after it has cooled.

This is a great idea. Will try this tomorrow. I'm assuming you only put the boiled water (once cooled) back into the tank, not the leaves, etc, as well?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, kapp said:

I'm assuming you only put the boiled water (once cooled) back into the tank, not the leaves, etc, as well?

No, the leaves and wood and alder cones can all be put back into the tank.

If you can get alder cones, these will give out lots of pH reducing humic acids. Much more so than IAL, and driftwood, pound for pound.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bigger concern I'm seeing here is using CO2 with shrimp... although CO2 can help to keep the pH down, not many shrimp do well with CO2.

And also a concern of not enough minerals in the water to begin with, as shrimp like minerals. RO water is lacking in minerals... lack of minerals equals dead shrimp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎26‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 9:40 PM, jayc said:

If you can get alder cones, these will give out lots of pH reducing humic acids. Much more so than IAL, and driftwood, pound for pound.

Hi jayc, thanks for this. I boiled up two big pots of IALs and put them in the tank yesterday. Basically no impact on pH at all. Am looking to get some alder cones. Any metrics in terms of # cones v ltrs v pH impact? Or should I just buy bucket loads?

 

On ‎26‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:40 PM, Zoidburg said:

The bigger concern I'm seeing here is using CO2 with shrimp... although CO2 can help to keep the pH down, not many shrimp do well with CO2.

And also a concern of not enough minerals in the water to begin with, as shrimp like minerals. RO water is lacking in minerals... lack of minerals equals dead shrimp.

Thanks Zoidburg. Funny enough, even with the large amount of CO2 going into the tank, the permanent CO2 monitor I have in there isn't showing any signs of CO2 over-saturation. Maybe something to do with the good aeration from the 6 ft sump? Although that also means a lot of waster CO2.

Regarding re-mineralisation, another very good point. Am looking to source some Shrimp Mineral GH / KH+, in the 850g container.

(Btw - can't help giggling everytime I read your Zoidburg handle. lol Love it.)

 

In case I need to revert to chemical pH reduction, to filter out the residual phosphates, will activated carbon in the sump filter these out?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, kapp said:

Basically no impact on pH at all

Yeah, I'm not surprised. It takes a lot of leaves to change pH. Wood and alder cones do a better job.

I don't have a special formula. But a handful of cones to start of with should be a good guide, then as you reach the target ph remove them (or some).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kapp said:

(Btw - can't help giggling everytime I read your Zoidburg handle. lol Love it.)

It was my SO's suggestion for a username, as it's the name of the dojo loach shown in the picture. Unfortunately, Zoidberg and the new shrimp didn't get along all that well, so he found a new home without any tiny shrimp.

The kuhli loaches though don't bother the shrimp like Zoidberg did. Actually saw a kuhli loach steal food from a cherry shrimp, and the shrimp got offended and attacked the face of the loach. The loach didn't do anything, except continue eating! LOL
 

1 hour ago, kapp said:

In case I need to revert to chemical pH reduction, to filter out the residual phosphates, will activated carbon in the sump filter these out?

I honestly wouldn't recommend trying to use a product to lower the pH because all it does is create pH swings and raise the TDS. Actually tried using some Discuss Buffer, and all it did was lower the pH by several points, raise the TDS by ~25, then the next day the pH was higher than prior to adding the Discuss Buffer... granted, I did test the pH of the water straight out of the tap, but with it being winter, it is reading lower than normal (because the GH and KH are also lower, as well as the TDS).

 

The tap *usually* reads 3-4 GH and Kh with a TDS of ~50 (give or take). Usually reads 7.6 pH on the low pH scale.

Right now, it's reading 2-3 GH & KH (closer to 2 than 3) with a TDS of 35-38. Looks like it's reading 7.2 pH on the low pH scale.

 

I add Discuss Buffer, and lowered the pH down to maybe 6.4? However, the TDS went from like 35 to 60. Waited several hours and retested the pH and it was up to 7.6.

 

Another issue with a product like this is that it removes calcium and magnesium out of the water, which shrimp need in order to molt. This means that you may need to re-add these minerals back into the water.


What it all comes down to is huge swings in pH and rising TDS. You wont get what you are looking for in a product like this.

 

 

You're best bet is trying to use rain water if you live in a "clean area" (i.e. clean air, not full of smog or other chemicals), or try a buffering substrate, which may lower the water's pH below 7. If you add KH to the buffering substrate to raise the pH (through water, baking soda or a remineralizer), you will exhaust the soil faster, thus losing it's buffering capacities, and you are back to square one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Join Our Community!

    Register today, ask questions and share your shrimp and fish tank experiences with us!

  • Must Read SKF Articles

  • Posts

    • beanbag
      Update to say that after a few gravel vacs, front wall scrub, moss / floating plant trim, that the condition seems to have improved.  My current theory is that it is due to waste / debris management, where "stuff" like that brown mulm accumulates in the substrate and behind the HMF filters.  Maybe some tanks can somehow deal with it, but mine can't.  Also another experienced shrimper suggested that maybe those "shell bugs" don't just live on the shrimps but also in this debris.  Maybe this is the reason some tanks fail due to "old tank syndrome" where all they need is a good gravel vac? Also, I am guessing that plant trim helps too because now more of the nutrients and light go into growing algae instead of more plants? Well anyway for this tank I will try weekly water change and monthly gravel vac / plant trim.  For my next tank, I'm thinking of something like an under-gravel system where this mulm can fall down and I vac it out.
    • sdlTBfanUK
      Good to have an update and good to hear you are getting shrimplets, so hopefully your colony will continue and you may not get to the point where you have to cull some to stop over population. These type of shrimp only live 12 - 18 months so the adult deaths may be natural? If you have the time I would do weekly 25% water changes, adding the new water via a drip system and do some vacuuming clean of the substrate each week, even if only a different bit each week! See if that helps in a few months and if it does then stick with that regime? It should help reduce any build-ups that may be occuring!
    • beanbag
      Hello again, much belated update: The tank still has "cycles" of 1-2 month "good streaks" where everybody seems to be doing well, and then a bad streak where the short antenna problem shows up again, and a shrimp dies once every few days.  I am not sure what causes things to go bad, but usually over the course of a few days I will start to see more shrimp quietly standing on the HMF filter, and so I know something is wrong.  Since I am not "doing anything" besides the regular 1-2 week water changes, I just assume that something bad is building up.  Here's a list of things that I've tried that are supposed to be "can't hurt" but didn't prevent the problem either: Dose every other day with Shrimp Fit (very small dose, and the shrimp seem to like it) Sotching Oxydator Seachem Purigen to keep the nitrates lower Keeping the pH below 5.5 with peat Things that I don't do often, so could possibly "reset" the tank back to a good streak, are gravel vac and plant trim, so maybe time to try those again. One other problem I used to have was that sometimes a shrimp would suddenly stop eating with a full or partially full digestive tract that doesn't clear out, and then the shrimp will die within a few days.  I suspected it was one of the foods in my rotation - Shrimp Nature Infection, which contains a bunch of herbal plant things.  I've had this in my food rotation for a few years now and generally didn't seem to cause problems, but I removed it from the rotation anyway.  I don't have a lot of adult Golden Bees at this point so I can't really tell if it worked or not. Overall the tank is not too bad - during the good streaks occasionally a shrimp will get berried and hatch babies with a 33-50% survival rate.  So while there are fewer adults now, there are also a bunch of babies roaming around.  I guess this tank will stagger on, but I really do need to take the time to start up a new tank.  (or figure out the problem)
    • jayc
      If that is the offspring, then the parents are unlikely to be PRL. I tend to agree with you. There are very few PRLs in Australia. And any that claim to be needs to show proof. PRL genes have to start as PRL. CRS that breed true after x generations doesn't turn it into a PRL. Neither can a Taiwan bee shrimp turn into a PRL despite how ever many generations. I've never seen a PRL with that sort of red colour. I have on Red Wines and Red Shadows - Taiwan bee shrimps. So somewhere down the line one of your shrimp might have been mixed with Taiwan bees and is no longer PRL. It just tanks one shrimp to mess up the genes of a whole colony. 
    • sdlTBfanUK
      Sorry, missed this one somehow! The PRL look fantastic and the odd ones look part PRL and part Red wine/Red shadow in the colour. They are still very beautiful but ideally should be seperated to help keep the PRL clean if you can do that.  Nice clear photos!
×
×
  • Create New...