ph 8.0 out of tap - how to get down

[kapp]

Hi all,

Need help.

Have set up my new tank and was about to put some initial livestock in (Cherry Shrimp) and put the final set ups in place, CO2 control unit, and the tank water which is all RO filtered, came up with a pH of 8. I got a digital pH pen, calibrated it and checked the water again and it too confirmed the high pH.

Couldn't figure out what could be causing it. Then I checked my tap water and the water was coming out at pH 8.1. I'm in Sydney and the water has always usually been pretty neutral pH.

I've got CO2 going into the tank now to get the pH down but the volume going in is very high (have a 10kg CO2 cylinder) but it's barely keeping the pH down. In fact it dropped a lot initially but is slowly going up even with CO2 going in. I've put IAL's into the tank and sump but they haven't started to affect the pH yet.

The tank and sump together hold about 1100 ltrs of water. Am aiming to get a stable pH7 for the tank for when I introduce fish, ie discus and associated tank mates.

Questions:

1) How many IAL's should I use and how much will they affect the pH?

2) One of my LFS's suggested using peat moss but the product they had only lasts a month and I'd need to buy at least 6 boxes for it have any impact on the water given the size of the tank. Is there any product I can use to naturally lower pH? And if there is, where's the best place to buy it from? (Don't want to use chemicals bc it's bad for the shrimp and the phosphates would encourage algae growth.)

3) My RO water goes into a 1000 ltr water tank for when I need it for water changes. Is it worth dropping in IALs into the water tank (in a bag of some sort) to condition the water before use? If so, how many should I use and for how long?

4) Any other suggestions?

[Zoidburg]

1) How many IAL's should I use and how much will they affect the pH?
As many as you want. There is no hard set rule on how many to use. They may or may not affect pH.

 

2) One of my LFS's suggested using peat moss but the product they had only lasts a month and I'd need to buy at least 6 boxes for it have any impact on the water given the size of the tank. Is there any product I can use to naturally lower pH? And if there is, where's the best place to buy it from? (Don't want to use chemicals bc it's bad for the shrimp and the phosphates would encourage algae growth.)
RO/DI water or rain water. There's also alder cones.

Anything that may naturally lower the pH (re: leaves, cones, peat) will also result in tea colored water or "black water".

This would mean that it would be best to have at least one 55 gallon drum (208 liters) to store water in prior to doing water changes and either toss in a pump or an airstone to circulate the water, and toss in a bag of peat/cones/leaves to get the drum water to be the same as the tank water.

 

3) My RO water goes into a 1000 ltr water tank for when I need it for water changes. Is it worth dropping in IALs into the water tank (in a bag of some sort) to condition the water before use? If so, how many should I use and for how long?
Have you tested the pH of the water after it's sat in this tank? Sometimes, allowing water to sit out overnight and aerating it can allow the pH to drop on it's own.

If you were to try going the "black water" route, you would probably need a lot of leaves, cones and/or peat...

 

4) Any other suggestions?
What is the GH, KH and TDS of the tank?

What are those same parameters for the water going into the tank? (you mentioned RO - does it come out at 0 GH and KH? And low TDS?)

[jayc]

Some good advice from Zoidburg there.

 

pH 8.1 for RO water is strange. Mine comes out much lower, 6.5 - 6.6.

Does the filter need replacing, maybe?

 

Take your IAL, alder cones, driftwood, peat moss, and whatever else you have, then put them in a big pot and boil it wit RO or aquarium water. Collect this boiled water, let it cool and use it in your tank. That will lower pH much faster. Otherwise it takes a long time to lower pH. Place everything you boiled back into the tank after it has cooled.

[kapp]

13 hours ago, Zoidburg said:

1) How many IAL's should I use and how much will they affect the pH?
As many as you want. There is no hard set rule on how many to use. They may or may not affect pH.

 

2) One of my LFS's suggested using peat moss but the product they had only lasts a month and I'd need to buy at least 6 boxes for it have any impact on the water given the size of the tank. Is there any product I can use to naturally lower pH? And if there is, where's the best place to buy it from? (Don't want to use chemicals bc it's bad for the shrimp and the phosphates would encourage algae growth.)
RO/DI water or rain water. There's also alder cones.

Anything that may naturally lower the pH (re: leaves, cones, peat) will also result in tea colored water or "black water".

This would mean that it would be best to have at least one 55 gallon drum (208 liters) to store water in prior to doing water changes and either toss in a pump or an airstone to circulate the water, and toss in a bag of peat/cones/leaves to get the drum water to be the same as the tank water.

Thanks. Good suggestions.

13 hours ago, Zoidburg said:

 

3) My RO water goes into a 1000 ltr water tank for when I need it for water changes. Is it worth dropping in IALs into the water tank (in a bag of some sort) to condition the water before use? If so, how many should I use and for how long?
Have you tested the pH of the water after it's sat in this tank? Sometimes, allowing water to sit out overnight and aerating it can allow the pH to drop on it's own.

If you were to try going the "black water" route, you would probably need a lot of leaves, cones and/or peat...

Yep, constant monitoring via control unit on CO2 system. pH is down now but due to lots of CO2 going into the system.

13 hours ago, Zoidburg said:

 

4) Any other suggestions?
What is the GH, KH and TDS of the tank?

What are those same parameters for the water going into the tank? (you mentioned RO - does it come out at 0 GH and KH? And low TDS?)

Haven't measured GH / KH. The RO system has an inbuilt 94 going in and 62 going out.

11 hours ago, jayc said:

Some good advice from Zoidburg there.

 

pH 8.1 for RO water is strange. Mine comes out much lower, 6.5 - 6.6.

Does the filter need replacing, maybe?

It's a new RO system. I've read that any impact on pH from RO systems depends actually a lot on how much CO2 is in the water before it gets filtered and often has no impact on pH at all.

 

11 hours ago, jayc said:

Take your IAL, alder cones, driftwood, peat moss, and whatever else you have, then put them in a big pot and boil it wit RO or aquarium water. Collect this boiled water, let it cool and use it in your tank. That will lower pH much faster. Otherwise it takes a long time to lower pH. Place everything you boiled back into the tank after it has cooled.

This is a great idea. Will try this tomorrow. I'm assuming you only put the boiled water (once cooled) back into the tank, not the leaves, etc, as well?

 

[jayc]

42 minutes ago, kapp said:

I'm assuming you only put the boiled water (once cooled) back into the tank, not the leaves, etc, as well?

No, the leaves and wood and alder cones can all be put back into the tank.

If you can get alder cones, these will give out lots of pH reducing humic acids. Much more so than IAL, and driftwood, pound for pound.

[Zoidburg]

The bigger concern I'm seeing here is using CO2 with shrimp... although CO2 can help to keep the pH down, not many shrimp do well with CO2.

And also a concern of not enough minerals in the water to begin with, as shrimp like minerals. RO water is lacking in minerals... lack of minerals equals dead shrimp.

[kapp]

On ‎26‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 9:40 PM, jayc said:

If you can get alder cones, these will give out lots of pH reducing humic acids. Much more so than IAL, and driftwood, pound for pound.

Hi jayc, thanks for this. I boiled up two big pots of IALs and put them in the tank yesterday. Basically no impact on pH at all. Am looking to get some alder cones. Any metrics in terms of # cones v ltrs v pH impact? Or should I just buy bucket loads?

 

On ‎26‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:40 PM, Zoidburg said:

The bigger concern I'm seeing here is using CO2 with shrimp... although CO2 can help to keep the pH down, not many shrimp do well with CO2.

And also a concern of not enough minerals in the water to begin with, as shrimp like minerals. RO water is lacking in minerals... lack of minerals equals dead shrimp.

Thanks Zoidburg. Funny enough, even with the large amount of CO2 going into the tank, the permanent CO2 monitor I have in there isn't showing any signs of CO2 over-saturation. Maybe something to do with the good aeration from the 6 ft sump? Although that also means a lot of waster CO2.

Regarding re-mineralisation, another very good point. Am looking to source some Shrimp Mineral GH / KH+, in the 850g container.

(Btw - can't help giggling everytime I read your Zoidburg handle. lol Love it.)

 

In case I need to revert to chemical pH reduction, to filter out the residual phosphates, will activated carbon in the sump filter these out?

[jayc]

25 minutes ago, kapp said:

Basically no impact on pH at all

Yeah, I'm not surprised. It takes a lot of leaves to change pH. Wood and alder cones do a better job.

I don't have a special formula. But a handful of cones to start of with should be a good guide, then as you reach the target ph remove them (or some).

[kapp]

Awesome. Thanks @jayc. Really appreciate your help.

[Zoidburg]

1 hour ago, kapp said:

(Btw - can't help giggling everytime I read your Zoidburg handle. lol Love it.)

It was my SO's suggestion for a username, as it's the name of the dojo loach shown in the picture. Unfortunately, Zoidberg and the new shrimp didn't get along all that well, so he found a new home without any tiny shrimp.

The kuhli loaches though don't bother the shrimp like Zoidberg did. Actually saw a kuhli loach steal food from a cherry shrimp, and the shrimp got offended and attacked the face of the loach. The loach didn't do anything, except continue eating! LOL
 

1 hour ago, kapp said:

In case I need to revert to chemical pH reduction, to filter out the residual phosphates, will activated carbon in the sump filter these out?

I honestly wouldn't recommend trying to use a product to lower the pH because all it does is create pH swings and raise the TDS. Actually tried using some Discuss Buffer, and all it did was lower the pH by several points, raise the TDS by ~25, then the next day the pH was higher than prior to adding the Discuss Buffer... granted, I did test the pH of the water straight out of the tap, but with it being winter, it is reading lower than normal (because the GH and KH are also lower, as well as the TDS).

 

The tap *usually* reads 3-4 GH and Kh with a TDS of ~50 (give or take). Usually reads 7.6 pH on the low pH scale.

Right now, it's reading 2-3 GH & KH (closer to 2 than 3) with a TDS of 35-38. Looks like it's reading 7.2 pH on the low pH scale.

 

I add Discuss Buffer, and lowered the pH down to maybe 6.4? However, the TDS went from like 35 to 60. Waited several hours and retested the pH and it was up to 7.6.

 

Another issue with a product like this is that it removes calcium and magnesium out of the water, which shrimp need in order to molt. This means that you may need to re-add these minerals back into the water.


What it all comes down to is huge swings in pH and rising TDS. You wont get what you are looking for in a product like this.

 

 

You're best bet is trying to use rain water if you live in a "clean area" (i.e. clean air, not full of smog or other chemicals), or try a buffering substrate, which may lower the water's pH below 7. If you add KH to the buffering substrate to raise the pH (through water, baking soda or a remineralizer), you will exhaust the soil faster, thus losing it's buffering capacities, and you are back to square one.