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drew

A warning and help needed

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drew

RCS 2.jpgP1010011c.jpg

Hi folks, where to start?

My other half loves RCS and she wanted to keep some in in my Cardinal Tetra Tank. After reading up on this wonderful forum about how to care for RCS it became clear that the Cardinal Tank; pH5.6, 0KH and 0GH (with test kits), was a terrible place for them. The initial 10 had multiplied to what I thought was about 30 after a couple of month or so I set up a temporary home for them in a 22L tank with pH6.4, GH3 and KH3 water. We started netting the shrimp as we spotted them, keeping them in a breeder box until we had a small group, removed them in a bag in the original water and dripped the new water into it before releasing them into their new home. After removing 10 adults, 20+ smaller shrimp and well over 60 shrimplets I realised that I needed a much bigger tank! I set up a 110 Juwel rekord with the same parameter water as the 22L tank and moved them all to it (after adjusting them to the new water).

FIRST WARNING! I wanted a full back wall of Java Moss for them, I bought a large order online from here in the UK, I washed the large amount of moss as best as I could and created a back wall. The Java Moss came with 3 leeches (small and clear, 1cm at rest, 5cm stretched), Cyclops, Plankton (that can be seen on videos of the tank) and about a million small Planaria! I think the Planaria eggs are what is visible near the tiny shrimplet. DON'T BUY Java Moss unless you trust the source and then quarantine any you buy! The leeches were removed and we are squishing tens of Planaria several times a day.

Second warning! I started feeding pellet feed with a high protein content and my tank thermometer was not reading correctly, showing 23C actual 28C!!! I lost 5 shrimp that died trying to moult. DOUBLE CHECK your thermometers!

The RCS have been breeding in their new home with no further losses, but the Planaria Squishing is never ending, so here are the questions.

I have been told that "No Planaria" will kill off the unwanted beasties so I have ordered some, and a couple of Leech/Planaria traps. Has anybody used "No Planaria" and is it "Shrimp Safe" and do the traps work and do they need some sort of bait in them?

I spotted what I thought was a female RCS looking a bit tatty and ready to moult and I got the photo. Is she looking a bit tatty pre-moult or is her back covered in some sort of parasites? Is that a Vorticella? on the top of her head?

 

I have loads more pics of the tank and shrimp if needed, but I don't seem to be able to post them. All the other shrimp that I managed to photograph look fine, as do the ones on video.

Thank you in advance, I hope this first post works for the Noobie.

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jayc
1 hour ago, drew said:

I have been told that "No Planaria" will kill off the unwanted beasties so I have ordered some, and a couple of Leech/Planaria traps. Has anybody used "No Planaria" and is it "Shrimp Safe" and do the traps work and do they need some sort of bait in them?

 

Some good warnings there Drew.

No planaria is shrimp safe, just make sure you follow the instructions accurately, if in doubt, use less. A smaller dosage will still work but maybe takes a bit longer. Always follow up with a 2nd treatment a week later. And remember to do water changes a day or two after, to reduce any ammonia spike due to the deaths of the planaria and hydra. 

The manual traps will need food in it to work. But it might be a bit overkill if you are going to use No Planaria.

 

1 hour ago, drew said:

Is she looking a bit tatty pre-moult or is her back covered in some sort of parasites? Is that a Vorticella?

Hard to tell unfortunately. Those tin head spots are just too small.

Unfortunately that thing on her head certainly looks like vorticella. At least that is not fatal. Treatment options can be found in the Shrimp Health and Care subforum.

 

Are these leeches as you call them, free swimming around, in an "S" shape? Or are they crawling on the glass?

Nematodes swim around in the water current in an S shape.

While Planaria tend to be crawling on the glass.

Just so we are clear with what you are dealing with.

 

Just a word of advice, squishing Planaria (not nematodes) is a bad idea. A decapitated Planaria will regenerate into two separate Planaria within 14 days. So instead of dealing with one, you have multiple planaria to deal with. Syphoning them out at water change is probably better than squishing them, as tempting as it might be.

 

 

Edited by jayc
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drew
22 hours ago, jayc said:

Some good warnings there Drew.

No planaria is shrimp safe, just make sure you follow the instructions accurately, if in doubt, use less. A smaller dosage will still work but maybe takes a bit longer. Always follow up with a 2nd treatment a week later. And remember to do water changes a day or two after, to reduce any ammonia spike due to the deaths of the planaria and hydra. 

The manual traps will need food in it to work. But it might be a bit overkill if you are going to use No Planaria.

 

Hard to tell unfortunately. Those tin head spots are just too small.

Unfortunately that thing on her head certainly looks like vorticella. At least that is not fatal. Treatment options can be found in the Shrimp Health and Care subforum.

 

Are these leeches as you call them, free swimming around, in an "S" shape? Or are they crawling on the glass?

Nematodes swim around in the water current in an S shape.

While Planaria tend to be crawling on the glass.

Just so we are clear with what you are dealing with.

 

Just a word of advice, squishing Planaria (not nematodes) is a bad idea. A decapitated Planaria will regenerate into two separate Planaria within 14 days. So instead of dealing with one, you have multiple planaria to deal with. Syphoning them out at water change is probably better than squishing them, as tempting as it might be.

 

 

Cheers for the advice. The leeches were leeches, fat end stuck to glass, thin end stretched our into water, well until they found my finger and went to lunch on it! I removed them from my finger by forcing them off with a blunt knife and dropped them into a glass of high strength aquarium salts water, they died and I was a little surprised at how long the blood flow from my fingers lasted. The critters on the glass when watched through a magnifying glass just seem to slide up the glass in a smooth movement, slightly fatter end first. They have a clear outer body with a milky white centre.

I now have visions of  "Fantasia" like swarms of Planaria being chopped in half and doubling in numbers. I did not just squash them though, I ground them to a "powder", so fingers crossed.

It's "Hands Up" time, I admit I took my eye off the ball with the RCS tank as my Panda Corys Had gone into breeding mode and I needed to set up the tanks for them/eggs/fry.

You can see from the pics just how many eggs appeared on the glass within days of the Moss Wall being added.

Crinum Calamistratum! The other half has expensive tastes!

 

OOPS, sorry, I can't post the pics. They are too big.

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drew

The No Planaria worked a treat, I've been testing the water for nitrites etc just to make sure all the death created has not messed up the water quality and it's perfect.

 

I have found no dead shrimp, just 4 large moulted shells (is this the correct term?), with no sign of a shrimp in her state. This time I removed the moulted shells as I did not want to risk leaving the vorticella that was attached, Was this the correct thing to do or would the vorticella have already have gone?

 

The 80X30cm wall of moss is full of shrimplets and they also love the Hair Grass.

The rolled oats in the photo last about 12 hours before the shrimps finish it off, frozen blanched spinach lasts up to 2 days, does anybody know if this is normal, or am I overfeeding? Cheers in advance.

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RCS 4.JPG

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jayc
1 hour ago, drew said:

frozen blanched spinach lasts up to 2 days, does anybody know if this is normal, or am I overfeeding?

Good to hear it has all worked out for you.

You can cut back on the amount of spinach fed, or just don't feed again for another day or two.

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zn30

Great news @drew great pictures love the wall of moss.

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drew

That nasty internet bought Java Moss brought with it;Leeches, Planaria, Hydra, Detritus worms, Cyclops, Dapnia and seed shrimp. Store bought products got rid of everything but the Cyclops and massive seed shrimp infestation. Half a dozen Celestial Pearl Danios polished off the Cyclops and Seed Shrimp. The CPDs were to be moved on to a new home but have started breeding in the tank.

I hope you like the pics, I love the photo of the teeth on the female's rostrum

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jayc

Nice macro shots.

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Zoidburg

Cherry shrimp really do best with 6-8 GH at least.


No Planaria could have killed off planaria, nematodes, detritus worms and scutariella (what most people probably call vorticella). Should kill vorticella, too. Cyclops are harder to get rid of... hopefully, the CPD's ate all, but I wouldn't be surprised if some are just hiding.

 

For future plants, you may want to consider an alum dip or bath. Alum makes the water acidic and I've heard of people using a bath for 3 days to kill off snail eggs. (not sure how well sensitive plants do with this)

Some people recommend Potassium Permanganate to remove pests, however, in my experience, it doesn't work. I did two PP dips on some plants within 24 hours. The second dip was so strong that it took *days* for the solution to turn clear. Snails never died...

Some people do bleach dips, although this can kill sensitive plants.

There's also Hydrogen Peroxide dips and CO2 overdose. Carbonated water could work for the latter.

 

So far, I've only dealt with nematodes, cyclops, detritus worms, small ramshorn snails, limpets and scutariella. A dog dewormer (Fenbendazole) took care of the scutariella.

 

 

Great pictures of your tank and shrimp!

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Matuva
On 27/08/2016 at 10:00 AM, drew said:

P1010055c.jpg

 

I really like the idea of this moss "wall"

Next to come in one of my tank °°)

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drew
On 02/02/2017 at 10:04 PM, Matuva said:

I really like the idea of this moss "wall"

Next to come in one of my tank °°)

Hi Matuva, I have a warts and all blog on a fish keeping forum; If it works I say so and if it is a disaster I give afull account of what went wrong.

The wall of moss failed, it went brown and died off over a few months. This has happened to other fish keepers to who contacted me to say that I was not alone with this miserable failure. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!. Good luck with your wall, I hope it works.

Andrew.

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drew
On 02/02/2017 at 4:07 PM, Zoidburg said:

Cherry shrimp really do best with 6-8 GH at least.


No Planaria could have killed off planaria, nematodes, detritus worms and scutariella (what most people probably call vorticella). Should kill vorticella, too. Cyclops are harder to get rid of... hopefully, the CPD's ate all, but I wouldn't be surprised if some are just hiding.

 

For future plants, you may want to consider an alum dip or bath. Alum makes the water acidic and I've heard of people using a bath for 3 days to kill off snail eggs. (not sure how well sensitive plants do with this)

Some people recommend Potassium Permanganate to remove pests, however, in my experience, it doesn't work. I did two PP dips on some plants within 24 hours. The second dip was so strong that it took *days* for the solution to turn clear. Snails never died...

Some people do bleach dips, although this can kill sensitive plants.

There's also Hydrogen Peroxide dips and CO2 overdose. Carbonated water could work for the latter.

 

So far, I've only dealt with nematodes, cyclops, detritus worms, small ramshorn snails, limpets and scutariella. A dog dewormer (Fenbendazole) took care of the scutariella.

 

 

Great pictures of your tank and shrimp!

Hi Zoidburg.

Thanks for the advice. NT LABS Anti Fluke and Wormer works great at killing Hydra. No PLanaria killed off everything you posted. These were 2 of the store bought treatments that I used.

My tap water is so soft that the water company treat it to elevate the pH to pH6.4 ish, this wears off over a few days and my water is basically rain water at pH5.65, KH0 GH0. I use my basic plant/ gardening fertilisers to elevate  to 3GH and just under 2KH. I have 200-400 RCS in a 110L Juwel Rekord and I trade/sell them to a couple of local fish shops 50 at a time.

 

I've been collecting data/water parameters from shrimp keeping forum members and breeders in the UK and the results so far are very interesting, the only constant is CONSTANT water parameters.

Cheers

Andrew.

Have another shrimp pic

RCS male 2.jpg

On 02/02/2017 at 4:37 AM, jayc said:

Nice macro shots.

Cheers jayc

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Zoidburg

By any chance, do you know what the TDS is prior to remineralizing the water, and what the TDS is after remineralizing?

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drew
43 minutes ago, Zoidburg said:

By any chance, do you know what the TDS is prior to remineralizing the water, and what the TDS is after remineralizing?

Hi Zoidburg

TDS before and after are 110ppm..

It's quite complicated how I make the KH/pH, All it takes is 2 of the tiny scoops (level) of fine powdered Hydrated lime.

My tap water TDS is 51ppm 15ppm of this is sodium (the bicarbonate that the water company use to elevate the resevoir water from pH5.56 to pH6.6 ish at the moment (I tested the resevoir water pH 5.65 TDS 30ppm)

I've been running the tank at pH6.4 ish with the other water patameters (see below) for a few months now, it's that before and after water changes week after week.

I do the following (twice)-

1 ten litre bucket of dechlorinated tap water.

Scoop out a pint of the water into a pint glass.

Give the glass water a 1 second blast of compressed CO2 gas via a tube and air stone (ph4.5 now).

Add 1 tiny level scoop of fine powdered hydrated lime and stir like mad.

A second blast of CO2 and stir like mad, pH will still show as the tap water pH6.6 (false) actual pH6.4

Add water back to bucket.

(I test TDS levels in the bucket as I complete every stage).

Add to bucket and stir;

3 large level scoops of Calcium Nitrate.

3/4 of a large scoop of Magnesium Nitrate.

Do the same in the second bucket.

The average of the TDSs for the buckets is within 1 or 2ppm of 110ppm.

Thats a 20% water change once a week for months. The last deaths were in and just after Summer, when I could not keep the water temp below 25C (I need to fit LED lights clear of the tank instead of the Juwel Rekord 800 T4 tubes in the hood).

I have just tested the water now;

pH6.4.

KH test, no result but will be less than KH2 (see pH)

3GH

Nitrates 4-5 ish?

TDS 111ppm.

Ammonia, Ammonium and Nitrites 0 as ever.

 

I am still working on the research for water parameter, but one thing is very clear already, it is very easy to keep RCS in very soft water (mine's a tad too soft on the GH and KH).

Posting water company figures for the important data for my tap water.

Cheers

Andrew.

 

 

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drew

I spotted a rather tatty looking 20mm female that looks ready to shed, fortunately she turned sideways to the camera and I snagged this shot of her and it looks like there is a crack in her shell and she will shed in the next day or two(?)

The original 20(?) shrimp were fish shop low grade cherry shrimp at £2.50 each or 5 for £10 in March 2016. July last year I spotted some low grade males in a fish shop that had very,very dark red colouring and added them to the tank, 2 died but 1 looks to have passed his dominant colour on.

AS they bred I removed and culled the least coloured (as advised on here). Now I sell/swap the shrimp that I don't want to breed at 3 fish shops.

For some mad reason I decided to see how dark red I could get the shrimp to breed. This dark red colour is now showing in a high percentage of female's tails and has spread to full body in the last generation, they are a tad to tiny for me to get a decent photo of.

I was worried about the tatty looking pale patches on the darker shrimp at first, but I don't think it's a disease as it only shows up on the very dark females with no sign of it on the lighter coloured females or any of the males.

 

I've not had any degradation in the colours, every generation seems to get darker, there have been no; Brown, green, blue, yellow shrimp, so I think this is all "Red Line" shrimp.

Does anybody have any idea about how to grade these?

For some reason I could not post my photo as it was not 200kb, never mind eh!

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Zoidburg

Would be interested in seeing a picture!

 

Upgrade membership? Make image smaller? Or load to an image hosting website?

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drew

Hi Zoidburg.

I've opened a Photobucket account, unfortunately my phone line is pants so uploading to the acccount takes forever, I'm upgrading to fibre optic.

The CPDs are still in the tank, and I was worried about the pH being too low for them and that they were eating shrimplets!

The CPDs are all health and are breeding. There are tens of new shrimplets in the tank now, they were incredibly hard to spot in such a large tank, but now they are up to 5mm they are easy to see.

I have been doing some serious research into the minerals in oats and spinach as I noticed that the shrimp were going for the oats as soon as they detected/sensed them and leaving the spinach.

Analytical results for oats show the major elements, Ca, Mg, Na, K, P and Cl, and the trace elements, Co, Mn, Zn and Cu (not in sulphate form and almost too low to measure). My tap water is a natural incredibly soft pH5.65 when matured, adjusted for KH + GH by my method should in theory still be too low for shrimp but it works with the oats diet.

I see post after post about shrimp struggling to survive and dying on forums, and they always seem to be related to diet (high protein, growth supplement), or lobbing various pH elevating chemicals into the tank and high water temperature.

 

KISS-Keep It Simple Stupid, that's my method with shrimp. But what do I know? I know in 3 or 4 weeks I will have to trade another 100+ shrimp!

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uslanja

Hi Drew!  I know this post is a wee bit old but we would love to see a current full tank shot! 

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