Time to try Zebras

[Paul Minett]

Ok guys I have had success with keeping and breeding Riffles, Parataya and hopefully soon the Macrobrachium now I finally have a male. I am looking for a new challenge I will be using a cube tank I have been using as a nursery tank for the other natives. should I strip and reset it before trying the Zebras the tank currently is very healthy and shrimp are doing well in it. I use rain water for all my shrimp tank's so parameters of 0-1 gh and Kh ph 7 tds 40-60 are easily obtained and maintained. From reading through the posts it seems water cleanliness is one of the most important factors as well as the well established biosphere are there other recommended essentials to keep them? Also sourcing them who do I speak to?

[fishmosy]

I would try to get your TDS even lower. I've been running 30-40ppm and now moved to 20-30 and will probably go to 15-25. The shrimp just seem much happier at low tds (better colouration, more active IMO). 

Overfeeding is obviously a no-no. I'm feeding mine 1-2 times per week max. They seem happy just grazing from the granite substrate, although I also feed mulberry leaves as well. Occasionally IAL if I run out of mulberry. 

Northboy is the one to talk to but I'm not certain that he will have any available. Shoot me a PM and I'll send you his email address which is probably the best way to contact him. 

[Shrimpmaster]

0 - 1 GH? I never knew shrimp can survive this? 

[NoGi]

It would be good to get these tank bred and introduced into the hobby. Make sure to share pics along the way, I might even decide to give them another crack.

[Paul Minett]

thanks mate will do tds from the rain tank is about 10 so I can go as low as that with them most shrimp seem to prefer the more natural rain water so far from experience but usually have cherry and tb etc in the tanks so parameters are kept at the higher levels for them. the cube will be just for them so can go straight rain water if need be to keep them happy.

 

yeah Nogi it would be great to see them readily available in the hobby.

 

[fishmosy]

yep straight rain water. that's basically what they live in anyway.

@Shrimpmaster Check out my thread in the field trip section to see the natural habitat and water conditions that these shrimp naturally live in.

 

[Shrimpmaster]

That is a great trip @fishmosy you've made. Interesting the low level params of the water. Maybe they can get all the minerals from all the rocks on the bottom? 

[revolutionhope]

hey paul i hope you can get a hold of some zebras and wish you the very best of luck! i have to say i enjoyed your SKF interview thanks very much for sharing your wisdom it is most appreciated :-)

i was planning to keep zebras and researched every scrap of information i could find on the web even joining another forum and messaging two people there that had kept them and asked what their experience was. i know that northboy has mentioned specifically that phosphates are a big danger and as fishmosy has said keeping TDS quite low is crucial several really experienced shrimpkeepers have attempted to keep them and sadly almost everyone has not had much (if any) success. :-(

i know northboy managed to achieve 3 generations in ponds up in cairns but he told me they were wiped out following a rainfall event which  apparently resulted in greenwater and they perished rapidly. as i mentioned. i more or less chickened out of keeping them (also they were no longer available) but i know that northboy has been intending to find some more as soon as he is able.

i might be stating the obvious ... but i would have to say that it makes sense to use as big a tank as possible so that pollutants are kept to a minimum otherwise they would surely would stress in no time without constant WC.

love n peace

will

 

[Paul Minett]

they will definitely be a challenge I am looking forward to trying some of my methods that have worked well with other shrimp. couple more questions guys  plants good or bad also other shrimp do they cross with other species like the crystals etc or has no one been able to get that far with them?

[fishmosy]

12 hours ago, Shrimpmaster said:

That is a great trip @fishmosy you've made. Interesting the low level params of the water. Maybe they can get all the minerals from all the rocks on the bottom? 

The rocks are completely inert (granite and a little bit of quartz). My guess is that they gain everything they need from their food which appears to be mainly leaf litter and biofilm. Algae (a major component in biofilm) and leaves (depending on species of course) actually have a substantial amount of nutrition. furthermore the shrimp don't grow very large (in comparison to a macrobrachium for example) so they don't need a whole lot of calcium ect. to grow.

[fishmosy]

4 hours ago, Paul Minett said:

they will definitely be a challenge I am looking forward to trying some of my methods that have worked well with other shrimp. couple more questions guys  plants good or bad also other shrimp do they cross with other species like the crystals etc or has no one been able to get that far with them?

Moss is present in their natural habitat so definitely doable. Not sure about plants as I've never tried it. The question might actually be, can plants handle the same conditions as the zebras require? I would guess that not many plants could live with next to no nutrients in the water column unless they had access to plenty of nutrients in the substrate. I don't know if it is possible to have lots of nutrient in the substrate without it leaching into the water column. Given the susceptibility of zebras to high TDS, I wouldn't risk it.

With regards to crossing with crystals - to my knowledge that hasn't been tried and I would suggest it would be very problematic (but not impossible) for three reasons:

1. I don't know of any crystals being kept at the same conditions as the zebs. My understanding is that crystals have trouble moulting if KH/GH are too low and zebras require super low TDS, GH and KH. This may change in the future as we figure out their requirements for successful keeping in aquariums and longer term breeding, but for the moment the requirements for both shrimp are miles apart.

2. Diseases carried by crystals are likely to adversely affect the zebras because zebras live in low TDS which has a low bacterial count and appear to be susceptible to bacterial infections when kept at TDS above their natural habitat (from my own experience), which you might have to do to keep both the crystals and zebras together. Once again, this might be overcome with time as we breed zebra strains that are better suited to life in aquaria.

3. This is an educated guess - it might be difficult to get zebras and exotics to mate/cross because, given the geographical distances between them, its likely that they separated into separate species a long time ago. In general, the more time that species have to evolve into separate species, the harder it is for them to cross. For example, its virtually impossible for a dog to produce offspring with a cat, despite the fact they are both mammals and evolved from a common ancestor some hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years ago, whereas dogs can mate and produce offspring with wolves. Dogs became a separate species from wolves when they were domesticated some 10s of thousands of years ago. Supporting my theory is the fact that crosses between Caridina shrimp have (so far) only occurred between species that have nearby geographical locations and therefore should be most closely related in the evolutionary sense. Prime example is the tiger and crystal crosses. these two species have been found in the same river systems. On the flip side, the genus Caridina might have only evolved fairly recently, meaning that pretty much any Caridina shrimp might be able to cross with any other Caridina shrimp and the only reason that we haven't seen these is because nobody has tried it yet. Given the amount of successful crosses that have been done (I believe there are at least 5 successful combinations of crosses between different Caridina shrimp species, plus 1 or 2 successful crosses with Neocaridina species), this may be true, but I don't think so because once again successful crosses have only occurred with shrimp from similar geographical locations. The other thing to consider about zebras specifically is that they can occur in the same river system as a very similar looking shrimp called Caridina confusa. If these species do not crossbreed (they might, but to my knowledge they don't), then there might be a mechanism that has evolved to stop them crossbreeding. One possible mechanism is the shape and appendages (hooks and spines ect.) on the males 'penis' which physically prevents the male from mating with a female of a different species. IF zebras have evolved to avoid mating with C. confusa then they are possibly less likely to be able to physically mate with crystals too.

We wont know with 100% certainty that crystals and zebras cannot mate successfully until someone keeps them together, but that wont happen until we overcome some of the issues presented by keeping them together - 2 of which I have outlined above.

[Paul Minett]

some of the plants I have collected are from similar conditions I'm aiming for  with them so shouldn't be too hard to keep them going I find plants very beneficial in the system I use for shrimp to keep them happy and healthy providing a lot of natural food sources. I have kept misch and a couple of crs in pure rain water for nearly two months doing large constant water changes so that's also doable they aren't totally happy in the environment but can be kept.it was just a curiosity question as I like to explore all possibilities when starting a new challenge. the disease transfer is probably my biggest concern if I don't fully reset the tank.

 

[Paul Minett]

this is the tank I am going to use

[Grubs]

@Paul Minett do you have a sense (or measure) of the EC/TDS in that tank after your 2 weeks of rainwater changes?  I would think some of those plants should be struggling more than they are. How low its gotten to will obviously depend on the size of the changes.  I've managed to keep quite a few plants going in pure rainwater (lowest EC ~40 µS/cm) but these were all rooting plants and I have a rich DIY substrate loaded with osmocote. 

 

In my zeb tank I've just recently started floating some ceratophyllum (hornwort) from my outside pond to supply some "different" biofilm.  The zebs go into the plants and graze a bit... but nothing special enough for me to say if its a great idea or not.

My zebs are hanging on...but I wouldn't say thriving on no reproduction at all so I'm still experimenting.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Grubs

[fishmosy]

I'm also interested to know what your TDS/EC is given your substrate appears to be 'pea' gravel. Sometimes these types of gravels can contain small amounts of limestone that can boost pH, TDS, GH and KH.

The other thing that I can also see as a potential problem is the snails. In my experience, snails really don't do well at low TDS because they can't gain enough minerals to grow their shell. Furthermore I would predict that the shells will dissolve away, providing a source of minerals to boost TDS. This effect could be amplified by any shells left over from dead snails in the substrate. If going with zebras, I would suggest starting a new tank with completely inert substrate (with or without plants as you choose) and adding the shrimp only after the tank has matured.

 

[Paul Minett]

tds at the moment is 80 as I have been dropping it slowly just to monitor the changes and reduce stress on plants etc. the gravel is totally inert. I have been using the tank as a nursery tank for other natives so was setup more for that tds was around 160 gh 3-4 kh 1-2 ph 7.4 I was going to try without totally resetting the tank reducing the need for it to reestablish so planning to drop it down to about 40 this week I use seachem equilibrium to add minerals as its a plant food it should help but I'm not sure how well the plants will like it at that level the snails definitely wont be happy they can move out if they don't like it.

 

[Paul Minett]

hopefully getting some Zebs next week tank is ready tds is 35 gh under1 kh 0 ph 7.1 plants and moss still going great some nice algae growth on the sides so hopefully they like it.

[fishmosy]

Nice best of luck mate. Remember not to overfeed these guys, its really easy to do.

[Disciple]

Good Luck Paul.

I will be very interested at how it goes.

[Paul Minett]

thanks guys I just hope that my normal natural jungle approach works with these guys its served me well in the past as it gives you a little margin for error as the plants etc help keep it clean and stable the plants are still surprisingly healthy considering the conditions. time will tell I guess just waiting to hear when they will be coming.