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Pedro

Help to identify heath issue

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Pedro

Hello everyone!

 

I've checking some of my Taiwan bee and found some odd looking ones and I need your help to identify the causes. I get some death's every now and then and the exoskeleton when these shrimps molt is usualy redish. Here are the pictures:

 

Picture 1- Right between the head and the first white stripe: 

2vbsmma.jpg

 

 

 

Picture 2 - That rust looking patch:

awdx4y.jpg

 

 

Picture 3 - The band in between the head and the abdomen:

2ues0us.jpg

 

 

 

 

My tank parameters last time were not that great:

 

Ph: 7.5

No2: 0 mg/L

No3: 0 mg/L

Gh: 5 °d

Kh: 3 °d

 

Thanks in advance! smile.png

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Disciple

Hello @Pedro

I believe your shrimp may have Chitinolytic bacterial disease, Shell disease, Brown spot disease, Black spot disease, Burned spot disease, Rust disease.

This is essentially a bacterial infection of Chitinolytic bacteria (Gram negative rods) including Vibrio spp. , Benekea spp., Pseudomonas spp., Aeromonas spp., Spirillum, spp. and Flavobacterium spp.

The impact on the shrimp is visible as the exoskeleton becomes pitted, eroded, and melanized at the site of infection.

Diagnosis: Erosion of chitin demarked by dark brown to black pigmentation demonstrates chitinolysis. Marks change colour from a rusty to a brown and finally a black colour. Ulcers form on these lesions, as the bacteria will destroyed muscle tissues under the shell. This opens the shrimp up to other secondary infections. The most common sites of infection is the gill, abdominal muscle belly, tail section and gastropods. Seriously infected will just lie on its side, only gastropods and gills in motion.

http://shrimpkeepersforum.com/forum/topic/5052-shrimp-diseases-and-diagnosis/?page=1 From @jayc post.
 

 

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Pedro

Hello @Pedro

I believe your shrimp may have Chitinolytic bacterial disease, Shell disease, Brown spot disease, Black spot disease, Burned spot disease, Rust disease.

This is essentially a bacterial infection of Chitinolytic bacteria (Gram negative rods) including Vibrio spp. , Benekea spp., Pseudomonas spp., Aeromonas spp., Spirillum, spp. and Flavobacterium spp.

The impact on the shrimp is visible as the exoskeleton becomes pitted, eroded, and melanized at the site of infection.

Diagnosis: Erosion of chitin demarked by dark brown to black pigmentation demonstrates chitinolysis. Marks change colour from a rusty to a brown and finally a black colour. Ulcers form on these lesions, as the bacteria will destroyed muscle tissues under the shell. This opens the shrimp up to other secondary infections. The most common sites of infection is the gill, abdominal muscle belly, tail section and gastropods. Seriously infected will just lie on its side, only gastropods and gills in motion.

http://shrimpkeepersforum.com/forum/topic/5052-shrimp-diseases-and-diagnosis/?page=1 From @jayc post.
 

 

Thanks for the reply! 

I was wondering the same sadly, just wanted some confirmation.  My issue is that I can't get my hands on Levamisole HCL. I have some questions about that bacterial disease:

- Would it be best to restart the tank? What about the tons of moss I have growing?

- Is there any other chemical that would work? I can get my hands on API FISH BACTER STOP and Esha 2000.

- How would I know when the shrimps are cured?

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GotCrabs

To be honest Pedro, I wouldn't use any API products unless it's just for conditioning tap water, I've found that some API products aren't too shrimp friendly, but that's me though and my early experiences when I first started using API.

Email The Tech Den and see if they have anything that could help, there'd be a couple members on here that'll know how to treat it also, also perhaps do more often water changes also? Not sure, but it's what I'd do though.

Actually, from what I've just read on Google the bacteria infection isn't really treatable, but hey never believe everything you read, I'd make sure water is healthy, an extra water change wouldn't hurt, as I said someone on here will know more than me.

Edited by GotCrabs

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anthonyd

My first guess would be your water parameters especially when you see that your twb display the symptomes on the first segment.They must have a hard time in a ph that high...

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jayc

Thanks for the reply! 

I was wondering the same sadly, just wanted some confirmation.  My issue is that I can't get my hands on Levamisole HCL. I have some questions about that bacterial disease:

- Would it be best to restart the tank? What about the tons of moss I have growing?

- Is there any other chemical that would work? I can get my hands on API FISH BACTER STOP and Esha 2000.

- How would I know when the shrimps are cured?

 

Try Oxytetracyline.

Most fish shops will have it. 

If you have another empty tank they is cycled,  you can restart this tank.  Otherwise don't bother. 

Edited by jayc
Correction of medication, and spelling
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Pedro

Hello guys! A few months have passed, I couldn't get my hands on those antibiotics here in Portugal nor on online stores that ship to Portugal without issues. So I decided to simply put all my Taiwan Bee shrimps on another tank and restart the one I had. I also set up a small quarantine tank so any Taiwan Bee had to go through it  before going to another tank.

And so I did, started with my Pinto Shrimp, a Berried Tiger, a male Tiger and a Blue bolt that were on the initial tank, after 40 days (ended at the start of January) all 3 were alive and the shrimplets were born so I moved them to a new tank (new substrate and all). After some weeks the male tiger died, I figured it was of old age plus the stress of quarantine and adapting to the new tank since he was already adult when I got him back in September. I keep losing shrimplets every now and then in that tank (they have less than 1,5cm still)  and now the Pinto has some odd spots as shown in the picture below. Is this the Shell disease?

I still have 90+ Taiwan Bees, shouldn't they be all dead by now? 

Here are my water parameters:

pH: 6.5

No3: 10-15mg/L

No2: 0 mg/L

GH: 6 dGH

KH: 0 dKH

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

DSC_0134.jpg

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jayc

Hi Pedro,

yes that looks like a classic case of early shell disease or Chitinolytic bacteria disease.

Ask your Local Fish shops what they use for bacterial antibiotics. It doesn't have to be the one I listed. As long as it's for gram negative bacteria, it should work for you as well.

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Pedro
1 minute ago, jayc said:

Hi Pedro,

yes that looks like a classic case of early shell disease or Chitinolytic bacteria disease.

Ask your Local Fish shops what they use for bacterial antibiotics. It doesn't have to be the one I listed. As long as it's for gram negative bacteria, it should work for you as well.

Hello Jayc,

I will check it this weekend. I do believe what they sell here for treatment is Esha 2000 or Waterlife Myxazin. 

Thanks for looking into this. 

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jayc
1 hour ago, Pedro said:

they sell here for treatment is Esha 2000 or Waterlife Myxazin.

No, that's not what you want.

Esha 2000 has too much copper sulphate, it will harm your shrimps more than cure it.

Myxazin is not strong enough.

 

Don't just look on the shelf. Ask the store owner if they have stronger antibiotics that they might use for their own tanks in the store.

My LFS is the same, they sell normal medicine on the shelves, but I have to ask specifically for 1gm of Oxytetracycline, and they will get it from the back room. ;)

 

 

ps.

@Pedro, that is a good picture of shell disease, can I use it in the Diseases and Diagnostics thread?

Edited by jayc

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Pedro
25 minutes ago, jayc said:

No, that's not what you want.

Esha 2000 has too much copper sulphate, it will harm your shrimps more than cure it.

Myxazin is not strong enough.

 

Don't just look on the shelf. Ask the store owner if they have stronger antibiotics that they might use for their own tanks in the store.

My LFS is the same, they sell normal medicine on the shelves, but I have to ask specifically for 1gm of Oxytetracycline, and they will get it from the back room. ;)

 

 

ps.

@Pedro, that is a good picture of shell disease, can I use it in the Diseases and Diagnostics thread?

Will try that! 

Yes you can use it. Hopefully it will help more shrimp keepers!

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jayc
1 minute ago, Pedro said:

Will try that! 

Yes you can use it. Hopefully it will help more shrimp keepers!

Don't give up.

If one shop doesn't have it, go ask another bigger shop.

Usually the bigger shops have it. They have more tanks, and more likely to encounter diseases with more tanks. They don't use commercial medicines because that would be expensive for so many tanks. So they use commercial medicines like Oxytetracycline. 

So you best chances are big Aquarium shops with lots of tanks.

 

And thanks for letting me use your  photo.

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Pedro
20 hours ago, jayc said:

Don't give up.

If one shop doesn't have it, go ask another bigger shop.

Usually the bigger shops have it. They have more tanks, and more likely to encounter diseases with more tanks. They don't use commercial medicines because that would be expensive for so many tanks. So they use commercial medicines like Oxytetracycline. 

So you best chances are big Aquarium shops with lots of tanks.

 

And thanks for letting me use your  photo.

Tomorrow ill go to some shops see if I can get anything but honestly my hopes are low, the aquarium trade is miles apart from other countries here and you barely see LFS with shrimps. Shops are usually very small around where I live.

But in any case I've been looking around online and found a store that sells some antibiotics for pigeons and birds, made a search for Oxytetracycline and got these results:

http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/index.php/respiratory-red-mix-100-gr-respiratory-problems-salmonella-and-bacterial-infections.html

http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/index.php/pantex-desiunfection-mix-100-g-oxytetracycline-for-racing-pigeons.html

http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/index.php/dac-eye-and-ear-cream-for-racing-pigeons-and-birds.html

http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/index.php/travipharma-entero-tabs-pigeons-products.html

http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/index.php/pigeons-produts-travipharma-myco-protect-tab-9517.html

http://pigeons.mercasystems.com/index.php/amoxineovit-pigeons-birds-products.html

Do you think any of these might do it?

Another question, this might sound stupid, but how will I know if the treatment was effective (considering that these shrimps went through quarantine and seemed fine)? If the tigers in the same aquarium get berried what should I do?

 

Thanks for the help @jayc! :)

 

Edited by Pedro

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jayc
2 hours ago, Pedro said:

If I was to pick one,  I would pick this one. 

 

2 hours ago, Pedro said:

Another question, this might sound stupid, but how will I know if the treatment was effective (considering that these shrimps went through quarantine and seemed fine)? If the tigers in the same aquarium get berried what should I do?

 

Thanks for the help @jayc! :)

 

Well, the brown coloured spots should disappear,  that would be one way of identifying the treatment was effective.  The shrimps would stop dying as well. 

The antibiotics won't harm the other shrimps or shrimplets. But there is a risk that it will kill off the beneficial bacteria in the filter. 

So either, 

1) quarantine all the shrimp in a temporary hospital tank for the duration of the treatment or

2) if treating in the main tank,  save some filter media in another tank,  or bucket with an air pump.

You'd want to treat all the shrimps,  not just the ones that look ill. 

Important- follow the dosage exactly. Keep the treatment going for 8 days, minimum. Add the recommended dosage every 2 days. 

You can perform a 10 -20% water change in between the 2 days of dosing.

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Pedro
35 minutes ago, jayc said:

If I was to pick one,  I would pick this one. 

 

Well, the brown coloured spots should disappear,  that would be one way of identifying the treatment was effective.  The shrimps would stop dying as well. 

The antibiotics won't harm the other shrimps or shrimplets. But there is a risk that it will kill off the beneficial bacteria in the filter. 

So either, 

1) quarantine all the shrimp in a temporary hospital tank for the duration of the treatment or

2) if treating in the main tank,  save some filter media in another tank,  or bucket with an air pump.

You'd want to treat all the shrimps,  not just the ones that look ill. 

Important- follow the dosage exactly. Keep the treatment going for 8 days, minimum. Add the recommended dosage every 2 days. 

You can perform a 10 -20% water change in between the 2 days of dosing.

With option 1 wouldn't there be a chance of shrimps getting the infection again after going back to the tank?

The dosage they say on the one linked is: ''5 g for 20 kg of body weight (= 40-50 pigeons) or 5 g in 2 litres of drinking water'', assuming a 40 Litter tank that is like a full pack each 2 days (they come as 100g each) right?

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jayc
4 hours ago, Pedro said:

The dosage they say on the one linked is: ''5 g for 20 kg of body weight (= 40-50 pigeons) or 5 g in 2 litres of drinking water'', assuming a 40 Litter tank that is like a full pack each 2 days (they come as 100g each) right?

That's right.

That is why I proposed option 1. You put them in a smaller hospital tank. And use less antibiotics.

With Option 1, you do a melafix or similar malachite green treatment followed by a 100% water change while the shrimps are in treatment.

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Clansman

Use oxytetracycline 250 mg tablets , one per 10 litre of tank water, IE 40 litre use 4 tablets , mix them in a food grade plastic bottle with tank water or ro water keep occasionally shaking they will take 10 or 15 minutes to disolve then pour and mix , 48 hours later third water change matching tds and temperature then re dose , another 48 hours same water change and re dose third and final time wait 48 hours and water change and if possible remove any remaining drug with carbon but its usual that it breaks down after 2 days .

vets can supply box of 28 tablets.

moving them may look at problem solved but it's not only takes one to carry the infection and then it's a merry go round , hope you can get the treatment 

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Pedro
8 hours ago, jayc said:

That's right.

That is why I proposed option 1. You put them in a smaller hospital tank. And use less antibiotics.

With Option 1, you do a melafix or similar malachite green treatment followed by a 100% water change while the shrimps are in treatment.

Ok, I will go with option 1 then! :) 

 

5 hours ago, Clansman said:

Use oxytetracycline 250 mg tablets , one per 10 litre of tank water, IE 40 litre use 4 tablets , mix them in a food grade plastic bottle with tank water or ro water keep occasionally shaking they will take 10 or 15 minutes to disolve then pour and mix , 48 hours later third water change matching tds and temperature then re dose , another 48 hours same water change and re dose third and final time wait 48 hours and water change and if possible remove any remaining drug with carbon but its usual that it breaks down after 2 days .

vets can supply box of 28 tablets.

moving them may look at problem solved but it's not only takes one to carry the infection and then it's a merry go round , hope you can get the treatment 

Thank you for the help too :)

I just went from the largest stores around and none have anything similar they showed me what I had before, API FISH BACTER STOP and ESHA 2000. 

They said its hard to get antibiotics for animal use with recent regulations in Portugal. 

Although I found I can also get my hands on Seachem ParaGuard and JBL Furanol 2 (think it uses Nifurpirinol) any of these will do the trick? else I'll go for the Pigeons/birds you suggested @jayc 

 

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jayc
9 hours ago, Pedro said:

Ok, I will go with option 1 then! :) 

 

Thank you for the help too :)

I just went from the largest stores around and none have anything similar they showed me what I had before, API FISH BACTER STOP and ESHA 2000. 

They said its hard to get antibiotics for animal use with recent regulations in Portugal. 

Although I found I can also get my hands on Seachem ParaGuard and JBL Furanol 2 (think it uses Nifurpirinol) any of these will do the trick? else I'll go for the Pigeons/birds you suggested @jayc 

 

Just to be clear with option 1, I mean treat the main tank. After you move the shrimp to a hospital tank, treat the main tank (now empty) with some melafix or antibacterial treatment.

paraguard is for parasites, so no it won't work.

Furanol 2, is for bacteria, it might work. But I'm not sure.

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Pedro
1 hour ago, jayc said:

Just to be clear with option 1, I mean treat the main tank. After you move the shrimp to a hospital tank, treat the main tank (now empty) with some melafix or antibacterial treatment.

paraguard is for parasites, so no it won't work.

Furanol 2, is for bacteria, it might work. But I'm not sure.

Yes I understood that eheheh :) I'm thinking of treating all my tanks to make sure it wont happen anytime soon.

So in your opinion I should rather get the pigeon/bird product with Oxytetracycline instead of Furanol 2 right?

Thanks for all the help and advice! 

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jayc
6 hours ago, Pedro said:

 

So in your opinion I should rather get the pigeon/bird product with Oxytetracycline instead of Furanol 2 right?

 

Correct. Tetracycline will work for sure. 

We cannot buy JBL Furanol 2 here, so I don't know for sure, but reading about it now, and it seems like it might work. But I'm not sure if it is safe for shrimps.

Edited by jayc

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Clansman

Oxytetracycline is a very widely used antibiotic in human medicine and animal it's also not expensive and used at correct dosage shrimp safe by treating full tank your treating everything , just keep an eye on filter , ammonia etc 

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jayc

@Pedro, any update?

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Pedro
5 hours ago, jayc said:

@Pedro, any update?

No news yet, got a friend who offered JBL Furanol that he used for his tropical fish so I could try on one of the aquariums before going to a Vet trying to get Oxytetracycline or before buying the pigeon/bird product.

JBL says it is freshwater invertebrate safe, so now I'm making more RO water since it says I should do a 50% water change before starting the treatment. I will keep the post updated :)

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Pedro

Ok point of the situation:

- Treatment is almost over on most tanks, just need to find some HoB filters to use some Activated Carbon to remove the rest of the antibiotic and then do a water change;

- The tank with the Pinto shrimp still had a tiger shrimplet dead 2-3 days into the treatment but then no more deads were seen. A female tiger got berried meanwhile but the Pinto still has the rust markings over his body but I don't think he molted in between the start of the treatment and now;

- The tank with Red whine/Red ruby was also seeing deaths every other day and after the treatment I didn't saw any other dead, didn't counted the number of shrimps at the moment but I believe they are all alive;

- The tank with the Pandas/King kongs have some shrimps with a rusty carapace but no deaths since the start of the treatment and only few molts;

- The small PRL colony was not seeing deaths but was also treated, the PRL cull tank is still waiting for the other tanks to be done with the treatment to start its own treatment. 

 

Cheers guys!

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